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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

Why did His Spirit descend into Hell?



Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice , he said , Father , into thy hands I commend my spirit : and having said thus , he gave up the ghost .

In His humanness His human soul, (spirit) is what He commended into the Father's hands. That is why He said, "my spirit". Father pathr, into eiV thy sou hands ceir I commend paratiqhmi my mou spirit. If it was the Spirit of God the Trinity, He would have said, Into you hands I commend our Spirit.

His Pneuma, superhuman Spirit was His to give or take up. The Spirit of God did not die, only His human pneuma (spirit), that is why the small "s", is what He commended to the Father.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4151. pneuma
Search for G4151 in KJVSL
pneuma pneuma pnyoo'-mah
from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's Spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.

Is the mind of Christ, that we know have, His rational human soul the vital principles of His full humanity, being all man, or the Spirit of the Father including the Holy Spirit, being all God.

See Greek 4154
See Greek 5590


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Phillip

 2008/9/4 19:44Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

i listen to what other believers are being decieved with . i have know since becomeing a Christian in 1985 that hagin has a messed up theology. i know that i need to only look to Jesus and His words . but we must also look to ourselves and some of us should long to be fathers spiritually in the things of God and that requires purity .i know that Jesus did not die a spiritual death. His death was physical . if it was his spirit and body that died which one pardoned our sins ?. i live in tulsa and there are alot of rhema students and grads here. i am writing about what the bible actually says on this Jesus dying and what it implys but i type slow and i will post it on here soon . it was finished on the cross the day Jesus hung there not in hell later. redeption happened on the cross , not in Jesus' spiritual death in hell that is so erroneously taught, and by some believed.


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Clint Demoret

 2008/9/4 21:42Profile
LoveHim
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re: did Jesus really die spiritually

No.

Quote:
i have studied as much as i can find on this and i do not see anywhere in the bible that Jesus' death was spiritual

i still do not find it in scripture

i think these comments of yours have more wisdom in them than you think..

phil

 2008/9/4 22:06Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
clintstone:
i have studied as much as i can find on this and i do not see anywhere in the bible that Jesus' death was spiritual

Could some one respond to this.
I tis a clear picture of spiritual death.

Since the Father hid His face from Jesus by forsaking Him, is that not severing the relationship(spiritual death)?

Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Physical death - spirit from body(Eccl 12:7, James 2:26)
Spiritual death - spirit from God(Isa 59:2)

Even the death of a marriage is the eperation of man & wife.
Many times God hides His face when sin is
[b]Mic 3:4[/b] [color=990000]Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.[/color]
Isa 57:17; [b]Deu 31:16[/b] [color=990000]And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers; and this people will rise up, and go play the harlot after the gods of the strangers of the land, where they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
[b]:17[/b] Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and [b]I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them,[/b] and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because [/b]our God is not among us=/b]?[/color]
Deu 31:17-18[color=990000]Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?[/color], Deu 32:20; Eze 39:23-24, Eze 39:29; Mic 3:4.

What happend when Jesus cry out with a loud voice, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
[b]Is that not His Father hiding His face?
Is that not His Father forsaking Him?
What is severing a relationship, if not this?
What is spiritual death, if not this?[/b]

 2008/9/4 22:31Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou:
His Pneuma, superhuman Spirit was His to give or take up. The Spirit of God did not die, only His human pneuma (spirit), that is why the small "s", is what He commended to the Father.

Jesus didn't have two Spirits.
You can't use the lack od Capital letter "S" in the word "spirit" to prooves anything.

What Jesus commended to the Father was His Holy Spirit, that is all He had.
His breath(pnuma) was/is not his "Spirit" any more than your breath is.

I don't know what your talking about with this "superhuman Spirit" & human pneuma(spirit)

 2008/9/4 22:33Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Even though the spirit is soul of man is one in the container or clay pot of his body, the Word of God quickly and powerfully separates the three. The soul-mind is separated for the spirit of a man, which is either the spirit of our father Satan or the born again Spirit of Christ in us. Satan out, defeated at the Cross, Christ in for the believers and no longer of their father the devil. In Adam's choice of believing a lie and disobeying God, he chose the spirit of evil, which is Satan, not the Spirit of Life which is eternal life in Christ. That is why Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, God did not want them with eternal life being evil and in separation from God, with their chosen father Satan's spirit now in them and eternal damnation at the same time. That is why the Plan of God before even the foundation made provision for Adam's choice, and that was: Ephesians 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

This is the purpose of our Glory, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

The same dispensation of God's timing, His fulness, which fulfilling it in Christ and giving the mystery to Paul to give to us-ward, "you-ward".
Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the Spirit of Christ in you and the spirit of Satan out. Now being able to be called by the Son that is birthed in us, by His Spirit, with our spirit, son's, the (human soul-mind spirit) now controlled by The Spirit of Christ we are His, and the Father can now have the son's He wanted in the first Adam, through the eternal last Adam's quickening Spirit.

Given to Paul, which is the mystery, The Born Again.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. ((((((((((Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.))))))))))
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Just like the Body of Christ was dead by the Cup He drank in the garden, the sin of the whole world, into His body, that is why in the mind of Christ, He felt the Father had turned away and that is the physical and soulish separation Jesus felt and cried, "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me". That is the body that was resurrected on the third day.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Edited for content.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/9/4 23:07Profile
LoveHim
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
What happend when Jesus cry out with a loud voice, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Christ bore all the weight of our sins and bore the wrath of God for us.
Quote:
Is that not His Father hiding His face?

no, brother where does it say "the Father hid His face from Christ"? it doesn't, at best all we have is a vague old testament scripture that says nothing about the Father hiding His face from Christ.
Quote:
What is severing a relationship, if not this?

Although the trinity is in many ways a deep mystery, i do not see anywhere in scripture that says the Father severed a relationship with Jesus. can you please give me some scripture to show that??
Quote:
What is spiritual death, if not this?

spiritual death in many places in scripture refer to us being dead because we are not quickened and filled with His Spirit. we are dead because we do not have Life in us and us in Him.

But nowhere in scripture do we see that the Father and Christ were seperated. nowhere do we see that they are not "One". in fact in john 10:30 Christ tells us that I and the Father are One". to say that the Father severed a relationship with Christ is to assert that at some point they were not "One". That would be denying the very foundation of the trinity my friend.

Add that along with the fact that Christ said "it is finished" (nothing else was needed), "today you'll be with Me in paradise" (not suffering in hell) and "into Your hands I commit my Spirit" and we see that while His body was in the grave, His Spirit was with the Father.

*interesting note* "Into Your hands I commit My Spirit" sounds alot like stephen , who while being stoned to death said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit". Much like Christ, after stephen died his body went to the grave and his spirit went to be with the Lord.. just a cool parallel.

just some thoughts brother,
phil


 2008/9/4 23:46Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3703
Ca.

 Re:

This is the corruption that the body of Christ did not come to. So when was resurrection power applied?

Determining the Time of Death....


Rigor Mortis:
Immediately upon death, muscles all relax and become flexible or flaccid. But as glycogen in the muscles is converted to lactic acid, the muscles become rigid this occurs due to metabolism in the muscle continuing anaerobically for a short period after death. All muscles, large and small become rigor at the same rate, but it will become more obvious in smaller muscles first. This process occurs more quickly when the body is exposed to warmer temperatures and proceeds more slowly when the body is cooled. An examiner will calssify the degree of rigor as mild, early, moderate or complete and the determination is purely subjective. Rigor mortis is affected by temperature, illness, activity before death, and the physical conditions of the environment where the body is found.
The onset of rigor mortis is immediate manifesting itself between 1-6 hours, maximum being at 6-24 hours and disappears between 12-36 hours.


Livor Mortis....
Livor mortis is teh way blood settles after death to the dependant parts of the body. Blood settles to the lowest points of the body once the heart has stopped pumping. The areas where blood has settled will become dark and take on a dark bluish or purple color. Visibility will depend on the level of pigmentation in the deceased skin.


Because the heart stops beating at death, livor begins very soon afterward. This darkening maximizes at 8-12 hours after death and does not disappear.


Tardeau's spots (petechial hemorrhages):
These small spots are caused by broken capillaries and when they occur in the whites of the eye, are suggestive of asphyxia or suffocation. The spots maybe 4-5 mm in diameter.


Algor Mortis.....
The body cools uniformly after death. Once metabolism has ceased, the body immediately begins to cool down. Body temperature after death can be raised or maintained due to
activity, illness, decompositon, infection and absorption of heat from the surroundings. In determining the rate of cooling, consideration must be given to the clothing, victim size, activity and physical factors. The one equation used to determine the cooling rate is known as the GLAISTER EQUATION:
98.4% minus measured rectal temperature
_____________________________________ = appr. Hrs.
1.5 since death


Ocular Changes:
The cornea becomes cloudy within 2 hours or less if the deceased dies with the eyes open, closed it will be 12-24 hours. On the 3rd post mortem day, the corneas become opaque. When gases begin to collect in the body, the eyes may actually bulge out of the socket, but when advanced decomposition sets in, the eyes become endopthalmic, or retracted into the socket.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/9/5 0:34Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Thanx for the reply

Quote:
LoveHim wrote:
Quote:
What happend when Jesus cry out with a loud voice, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Christ bore all the weight of our sins and bore the wrath of God for us

I know about the weight of sin, but what is the wrath?

Explain what you think the weight of our sins is.
Does it include all of the consequences that sin brings between the Father & sinner?

You do know that this is the ONLY time that Jesus called His Father "God"?
Why did He call His Father "God"?
Because, only the estranged call The Father as "God".

How did God "forsake" Him?

Quote:
Quote:
Is that not His Father hiding His face?

no, brother where does it say "the Father hid His face from Christ"? it doesn't, at best all we have is a vague old testament scripture that says nothing about the Father hiding His face from Christ.

It is all in the forsaking.
All those verses that I gave with God hiding His face on the account of sin, God hid His face from Jesus as He being our sin offering.

Why do you think Jesus wept so bitterly in the Garden?
Why the swet of blood?
I tell you it ain't from the coming crucifiction, but from the bearing of the consequence of the guilt of sin(though not being guilty himself).

God can not look upon sin, & for Jesus to take the full brunt of our sin, God could not look upon Him just the Father can not look upon those who are not aquainted with Him through faith.

Quote:
Quote:
What is severing a relationship, if not this?

Although the trinity is in many ways a deep mystery, i do not see anywhere in scripture that says the Father severed a relationship with Jesus. can you please give me some scripture to show that?

I have, you just need to aply it. ;-)

What is the consequence of the guilt of sin in which He bore?
It must be more than only physical death, for we suffer more than only physical death.
If Jesus didn't bear the full brunt of the consequence of the guilt of sin(physical & spiritual death), the question must be asked; did Jesus pay the full ransom price?
Was Jesus sacrifice an equal substitution of/for our condemnation?

Quote:
Quote:
What is spiritual death, if not this?

spiritual death in many places in scripture refer to us being dead because we are not quickened and filled with His Spirit. we are dead because we do not have Life in us and us in Him.

In what sence were we dead?

Quote:
But nowhere in scripture do we see that the Father and Christ were separated. nowhere do we see that they are not "One". in fact in john 10:30 Christ tells us that I and the Father are One". To say that the Father severed a relationship with Christ is to assert that at some point they were not "One". That would be denying the very foundation of the trinity my friend.

The Trinity being "One" means to be unified. The Trinity is a coalition, concord, &/or agreement, conjunction of mind, will, affections & interest.
Being "One" is the junction or united existence of the Godhead for the Holy Trinity.

They never became un-unified in purpose, of mind, in working & love.
Jesus never stoped being God, niether did the Father.
All that happened was the Father forsook Jesus in respect to the consequence of the guilt of sin.

Quote:
Add that along with the fact that Christ said "it is finished" (nothing else was needed), "today you'll be with Me in paradise" (not suffering in hell) and "into Your hands I commit my Spirit" and we see that while His body was in the grave, His Spirit was with the Father.

I whole heartedly agree. Jesus was never tormented or suffered in hell.

 2008/9/5 11:43Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

thank you for your encouraging words . i am soon to post what i have found in my searchings on here . the mythology that some men go into to exsplain thier system of believing. Such as, that all men can be gods, since Jesus was only a man on earth and became the first one to be born again .


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Clint Demoret

 2008/9/5 17:19Profile





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