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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

This God [i]always[/i] business, like Mike has said, is but a bane and another symptom of the on-going mass deception and falling away in the church today, whether it be the scripture-wrested assertion of God always healing in the physical, or whether it be with tongues or tithes; it is the human legislation of God's working and dealings with carnal flesh and human understanding. Man loves to draw lines in the sand, draw straight, neat lines and smugly point to them in the power of deduction and logic. I suppose it brings us a sense of security, and an occasion to shrink wrap a little package of divinity. It permits us present the masses with a neat and tidy satisfaction-guaranteed mindset. No longer are the inner mysteries of God's dealing with men seen through a glass darkly - they are now put in a petri dish, observed beneath halogen lamps, and the discoveries published to a voracious religious community.

Brethren on SI, I can tell you that whenever you encounter teachings of the [i]always[/i] and the [i]musts[/i] pertaining to the actions and gifts and tangible dealings a sovereign God - a God whose ways are so far above and beyond ours - it would behoove you to pause and pray for discernment lest you too get emotionally swept away with the flow of human logic and reason. I am not going to debate this with anyone here, so please save your strength; I only speak to those with an ear to hear.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/30 10:01Profile









 Re:

Hi Paul...reality will testify to what you wrote.

I like to think that I have a wee bit of insight that other may not have as I was told by doctors that I was going to die and really the reality of that tears the discussion away from the theoretical to the pounding reality of imminent death.

Over the last 18 years of my Christianity, of living in and amongst the Pentecostal population I have seen it all. Death, disease, claims of faith, claims of miracles. I have heard all of the formulas, all of the notions, all of the snake oil , bottled and sold. In almost every case, where people have been very vocal about healing's, and the shadow of death falls on them, they lose it. It is quite nauseating to see. For you see, the highest form of faith is when Job pronounces "Even if He slay me, yet will I trust Him." So, I believe that the biggest problem the Pentecostal world faces is that they truly do not believe that "the steps of a righteous man or woman are ordered of God."

They believe that they are in a physical battle and that Satan is trying to kill them, either by circumstances , accidents and so on, or by disease. That's a lie from Satan who is puffed up. Satan has no power over me. I am not leaving this planet one day before my God deems it. I am His servant, bought with a price. He who the son sets free is , of course, free indeed. If one believes that there is a battle between God and Satan over His servants, then God failed all of the Apostles, perhaps excluding John. Is that true? Did God fail them? Did Satan prevail ? In practice, that is what many Christians believe according to the theology that they live by. If you read my testimony in the post "Anatomy of a miracle," you will see that God simply told me to trust Him. He made me no promises. And what was I to trust? That my life was in His hands. It would be He that would determine the outcome of my life because I am His, He bought me with a price, the blood of Jesus. Miracles in the Bible were one way of establishing Jesus' identity and legitimizing the Gospel.

Perhaps brothers and sistes should ask themselves this. How many followers of Jesus do we read of in the Bible being healed? And by followers, I mean disciples. Not the crowd who had shown up to see a show or to be fed(John 6) Think about the man outside the temple. He was simply asking for money. There was no background of faith, no build up, no working up of faith. The truth is, there is no formula in the Scripture for healing, that's the end of the argument right there. Bottom line, most Christians I know fear death and disease as much as people in the world, shame on them. That sounds cruel I know, but I repeat, shame on them. The same people who would proudly proclaim this Scripture "O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?," will fall to pieces at the bad report of a doctor and Satan sneers. He sneers because he is not interested in your life, he is interested in destroying your witness. He is interested in your actual treasures, your peace and your joy, your trust and your faith. Just like the Romans had no interest in the actual temple, they knew that it was symbolic, they actually turned over every stone because the sheets of gold was actually inlaid into the very joints of the stone.

Here is the Scripture that lays this open.

Php 1:27 Only let your conduct be as becomes the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you, or else am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, striving together with one mind for the faith of the gospel,
Php 1:28 and terrified in nothing by your adversaries. For this is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Php 1:29 For to you it is given on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake,


 2008/8/30 11:29
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

appolus wrote:


Perhaps brothers and sistes should ask themselves this. How many followers of Jesus do we read of in the Bible being healed? And by followers, I mean disciples. Not the crowd who had shown up to see a show or to be fed(John 6) Think about the man outside the temple. He was simply asking for money. There was no background of faith, no build up, no working up of faith. The truth is, there is no formula in the Scripture for healing, that's the end of the argument right there. Bottom line, most Christians I know fear death and disease as much as people in the world, shame on them. That sounds cruel I know, but I repeat, shame on them. The same people who would proudly proclaim this Scripture "O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?," will fall to pieces at the bad report of a doctor and Satan sneers. He sneers because he is not interested in your life, he is interested in destroying your witness. He is interested in your actual treasures, your peace and your joy, your trust and your faith. Just like the Romans had no interest in the actual temple, they knew that it was symbolic, they actually turned over every stone because the sheets of gold was actually inlaid into the very joints of the stone.

Here is the Scripture that lays this open.

Php 1:27 Only let your conduct be as becomes the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you, or else am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, striving together with one mind for the faith of the gospel,
Php 1:28 and terrified in nothing by your adversaries. For this is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Php 1:29 For to you it is given on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake,





Brother your writings have been a blessing to me and I'm sure many others.

I agree because it is not what we can do but what God does in us and through us. We have been bought with a price and we are not our own.

We can only receive from God according to the light we have received and are willing to obey.

God does not deal with every one on the same level. We are suppose to be walking in the light. We are suppose to go from milk to the meat of the word.

It is the Holy Ghost doing the work of God. If we are going to do the miracles that the apostles did then we are going to have to be filled and stay filled with the Holy ghost as they were.

Blessings to all!

 2008/8/30 12:02Profile









 Re:

Amen rbanks. Let God decide what He will, with us, let us only surrender. Spurgeon said it better than most "Lord, let me be an ox on your alter or an ox in the field." So much good teaching in that one sentence. Where are the warriors for Christ, who are willing to go into the battle and not neccecarily come out, in this life at least? In everything, give thanks brothers and sisters. I am not saying that you will walk through this world un affected, but we can walk through this word un-defeated, even if that means death. For death is the glorious passing over into the Kingdom. Should we not run to it like David ran to Goliath? Goliath may not be alive today and mock the people of God, but there are other giants that are mocking the people of God. The giants of disease, the giants of poverty, the giants of death. They mock the world and the world cowers. Better to go out and die on the battlfield of life in the glorious cause of Christ, than to cower in the shadows with the defeated world...........Frank

 2008/8/30 22:58
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

DirkW,

You have it pretty much there. I've only read briefly on Watchman Nee's writings, but it seems ok so far (I'll attach it again courtesy of Tears_of_joy http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv3/sprtmnv3cont.htm


God does want to heal us, so we should pray for healing. However, not all the time He will want to heal us.

At times, He doesn't heal us due to many reasons, for example:

--to keep us humble (like Paul)
--to chastize us
--to help us grow (as this may be the best way for us to mature as Christians)
--so that we can be a blessing to others (eg: we are put in a hospital where we can witness to others there)
--other myriad reasons that God may chose not to reveal to us or to reveal partially to us

We pray bravely for healing but we also ask God that He heals us only if its in accordance with His will. If it is not in accordance with His will to heal us, then to give us assurance, peace of mind and strength to bear it. We also ask God to reveal to us anything that we need to learn and repent, if this illness is a sort of chastisement from Him.
Also, even during the illness, we ask God how we can give glory to Him (for example, even during the pain, we behave Christlikeness, so that others may see Christ in us during the suffering and in turn be converted etc). When we do that, God will give us peace and the ability to bear under difficult and painful situations and we may even have joy during this period.


Some tend to quote Paul on saying that we should not ask for healing , saying he was not healed on account of his thorn in the flesh.

What people failed to recognise too, is that Paul asked 3x for the healing. On the 3rd time, he finally had enough assurance that it was indeed God's will not to heal him. Therein, you see 1 of the answer, do ask for healing until you are sure that its God's will that it will not be so.

On a sidenote, I've not read Roger Sapp's website, but I will do so in time. I am not so keen to dismiss him just because he sells some books (with supposed offer) etc--not saying that anybody has done that. Everybody is human and some of the best preachers we admire for example, Martin Luther, Augustine, George Whitefield has some teachings that would
be considered heretical but most here have not condemned them because they look overall at their contribution and do not nitpick at them to say--hey just because this particular teaching is wrong, then the whole thing/person is wrong.
We can disagree on certain parts of their doctrine/practise, but until they prove really unreliable, we should not easily dismiss somebody off as wrong.



_________________
geraldine

 2008/8/31 0:59Profile
Joshh
Member



Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

Crsschk, first of all, if you're going to quote the Bible to back your argument up, post NT verses! Don't post from before Jesus' sacrifice.

Quote:
This “always” has got to be one of the worst esegesis of scripture on any number of items

Like saying God “always” wants to save us? Here is an interesting fact for you: The Greek word for “saved” is Sozo. It is actually translated in multiple places in the NT to “make whole” “heal”, etc.

Now, about the NT verses you quoted: They aren't talking about physical healing!

Yes, I would say always, because Jesus revealed it is the Father's will to always heal. About my “arrogance”: it isn't arrogant to read what Jesus did and form theology from it! It is quite arrogant to have a bad personal experience and use that to form your own, unBiblical theology. And why don't you show me this mountain of evidence? Go through the Gospels and show me the mountains of evidence you have that it isn't the will of God to heal! Since there are mountains, there must be plenty of times where Jesus refused to heal someone, right?
Quote:
To put the blame on the sufferers [i]always[/i] is the height of audacity even if it is done by inference of implication

Do you have any idea what your saying? For me to say the sufferer's theology is causing them to not be healed is no more audacious then telling a Mormon their theology will cause them to suffer for eternity. When I try to talk to someone about their theology on healing, it isn't to try to put them down, but to try to help them to get what God wants to give them, and what they need for themselves.

As far as the “challenge” to heal goes: Well, first of all, if these people will have your belief, they probably won't get healed. They're going to have to believe that God wants them well first, not that his will is some mysterious thing that no one can know for sure. I can't “put my theology to work” to heal. It is what I've explained in this very thread, you can't just walk into a hospital full of doubt and unbelief and clear it out. Second of all, it appears that you think that pastorfrin should be healed because he is a good Christian man. We don't get healed because we're good, we get healed because of what Jesus has done for us and He is good! If you approach God from that position, you will get little from Him. As for Art Katz, again, God doesn't heal because we pray, fast, beg, cry, read the Bible, etc, again, only because of what Jesus has done for us. Our best, filthy rags get us nothing from Father. Did Art believe it was God's will to heal him? Or did he think he had to learn something? Or there was a divine purpose?

Now, let me ask you a sincere, honest question. Let's say for a second I could go to Seattle and wherever pastorfrin is located, talk to them, pray for them, and they were both healed. Would this somehow change your mind on this subject? Would you then admit that you're wrong, or would you stubbornly cling to your doctrine that God wants some people sick, and it was a big coincidence that they happened to get healed? How does this fit into my “always theology”? The exact same way someone not getting saved and going to hell fits in my “always God's will to save theology”.

Quote:


Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father‘?"


Jesus never contradicted the Father's will. He did it perfectly. Not only did He do nothing wrong, He also did everything right. Every time Jesus healed someone, you can bet it was the Father's will for him to do so. So here is a challenge to you: If you, or anyone here who agrees with you, can find one, just one place where Jesus refused to heal someone because it wasn't the will of the Father, I will freely admit I am wrong on this subject. I will sincerely apologize for being wrong and filling this thread and forum with my incorrect, false theology. Again, just one place in the Gospels where it says that Jesus [i]wanted[/i] someone to remain sick. BTW, Jesus not doing these great works because of the peoples' unbelief and doubt isn't what I'm talking about.
One last thing, crsschk. I deeply want to see people relieved of their sickness and pain. If I was only looking for a fight, there are a number of threads here I would be in, stirring things up.

 2008/8/31 3:39Profile
Joshh
Member



Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think I'll just bow out of this thread. I posted here to try to show people what I've learned about healing and how I've seen it in action, but I really don't think most people are open to that at this point. If I'm wrong and you would like to discuss healing with me further, feel free to PM me.

 2008/8/31 4:36Profile









 Re:

Hi Joshh....God bless you man. Can I just say that there is so much fear in the Christian church today. Much of what passes for faith today is actually fear disguised.

I can see that you are thouroughly convinced in what you believe brother. I spoke to a man at my church once who believed excatly as you do. We talked about the Roman soldier having faith on behalf of his servant and his servant was healed. He claimed to have such faith. Can I ask you, do you have the same faith as the Roman soldier? Do you believe , as he did, that since he was a man of authority, he recognized that disease was under the authority of Jesus? I shall await your short answer :) Even if we disagree, I think that we can agree that despite which way we believe, however we interpret the Scriptures, that we may stand on the right side of this argument and not have love. If we do not have love then we do not have anything. "You will know them by their love for their brethern." Love will always be the true mark of follower of Jesus. We can firmly stand upon what we believe, and we should, yet grace and love is the oil that lubricates the "Church.".....brother Frank

P.S Just because people do not agree with you, does not mean they are not "open."

 2008/8/31 9:55
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Not giving up

Quote:
You know, the more I think about this, the more I think I'll just bow out of this thread.



Bow out so you don't have to answer? That is your prerogative and it is too bad that you would jump to a conclusion midstream ...

Had it in mind to come back here and in essence state that it appeared we had something established in regards to Gods sovereignty and that now we could turn to what I kept alluding to in other mentions; Namely just what the Lord Jesus said on these and related matters, on unbelief and asking in His Name all those things that are [i]rightly[/i] attributable and often difficult to wrestle with. I do indeed mean it in regards to healing. The verses are well known ...

But now there is a digression, that we may have not established a foundation well enough.

Quote:
Crsschk, first of all, if you're going to quote the Bible to back your argument up, post NT verses! Don't post from before Jesus' sacrifice.



Why? Is there a dichotomy? What does this do to the 'always' aspect? Has the Lord changed His mind since the foundation of the world in this regard? And did He therefore contradict Himself by both healing some and [i]allowing[/i] others not to be healed as it is His prerogative to do so in the "Old Testament"? This is absolutely a matter of God's sovereignty and if we cannot get this established, get a grip on what the Lords will is (not didacticly as you suppose)in any given situation and how we come to understand that we will be stuck right here.

Quote:
Yes, I would say always, because Jesus revealed it is the Father's will to always heal.



The onus is on you to prove this, which you have failed to do except by supposition, that is by [i]supposing[/i] it to be so.

Quote:
About my “arrogance”: it isn't arrogant to read what Jesus did and form theology from it! It is quite arrogant to have a bad personal experience and use that to form your own, unBiblical theology. And why don't you show me this mountain of evidence? Go through the Gospels and show me the mountains of evidence you have that it isn't the will of God to heal! Since there are mountains, there must be plenty of times where Jesus refused to heal someone, right?



Check yourself there. The problem with this kind of straw man argument, if you are unfamiliar with the term, setting up a notion or construct and then daring someone to knock it down is indeed arrogant. Giving you real life examples, presently before your very eyes and challenging you to put your money where your mouth is not a 'bad personal experience'. Would you have the nerve to go tell anyone this, those presently under the conditions they are right now facing or have you just done so with your haughty statement? That their theology is unbiblical ...
You are greatly misconstruing all that is being said here.

Perhaps I should request our brother Paul West to inform us of what a decaying corpse is comprised of being that he is a mortician as well as a preacher ...

Where you err is to assume that what many of us are stating is in fact an opposite to your 'always' - and that it is 'never' at the least it is an implication from your rhetoric and could not be farther from the truth. But you know not the Lord at all if your presumption is to presume upon the ways of the Lord as if they are quite so easily spelled out as to be something of a listed self help manual or a selection of questions with all the answers and explanations following, not unlike the gentleman you linked to earlier. If it was all so simple!

You choose to ignore what is plainly before you and turn it around to force it into a paradigm that you have yet to prove [i]scripturally[/i] that 'always' be the case. No one is disputing anything the Lord Jesus did. Jesus did what He did. The gift of healing was given to [i]some[/i] not all, why have you chosen to ignore this point?

Quote:
When I try to talk to someone about their theology on healing, it isn't to try to put them down, but to try to help them to get what God wants to give them, and what they need for themselves.



Like Paul's many stripes? Like David Brainerd's coughing up blood and almost constant sickness and his shortened life before the days of anti biotics -[url=http://www.higherpraise.com/preachers/brainerd.htm]David Brainerd[/url]. Like all the examples in Hebrews;

[i]Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, [u]not accepting deliverance[/u]; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

And [b]others[/b] had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.[/i]
Heb 11:33-38

Ah, you will say this has nothing to do with healing, well extrapolate it out, what does it have to say about the will of God and these of who [i]the world was not worthy[/i] of what they both accepted and experienced? Always? The apostle Paul's beatings and imprisonments and stripes as I alluded to earlier, what was Paul's problem that he did not accept the Lords 'always' healing so readily available and even went so far as to state;

[i]That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;[/i] Php 3:10

The fellowship of His suffering. Let's turn to the Lord Himself.

[i]And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.[/i] Luk 4:23

[i]He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.[/i] Mat 27:42

[i]And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.[/i] Luk 22:41,42

Like it or not this is the fact of the matter, [i]not my will, but thine, be done[/i]. It is throughout all of scripture, it is the heartbeat of trusting the Lord in all things and accepting everything that comes from His hands. It is the denying of our self and the carrying of the cross, that instrument of [i]death[/i]. How obstinate must one be to deny this.

[i]Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.[/i] Jas 4:7-16

Presumption and boasting, it all applies.

Quote:
As far as the “challenge” to heal goes: Well, first of all, if these people will have your belief, they probably won't get healed.



And just what pray tell is 'my belief'? Have this all figured as well? Though my opinion is of little consequence and can only be stacked against the weight of what is spoken in God's word ... I'll give it. I believe everything written as it is written. I believe that it is the height of audacity and pride to even question the ability of the Lord to heal anyone at any time as is His prerogative. To presume is deadly and I will not do it. My indignation rises up at the charlatans of this hour with their manipulations and contortions of selected verses of scripture to make incidents precedents, to teach step by step formulaic notions - whether they be "how to" secure finances or 'healings'. To 'name it and claim it' as if the High and lofty One sits on the throne of the universe just awaiting for the creatures to petition Him for anything and everything that their fleshly desires want fulfilled. This 'belief' has become so contorted that their presumptuous notions are even met with surprise, denying their very 'belief' as in fact [i]unbelief[/i] when the Lord does bestow anything of a truth upon them. If He does heal someone they go all to pieces as if to say "Can you believe it?" And must run around boasting and generally exaggerating their very claims. So we have a numbers racket of the 'thousands' healed and raised from the dead and on and on it goes. Strange thing that the Lord Himself often told those that He did heal to in essence kept their mouths shut ... go ahead and dissect that if you will and say it doesn't apply and really means ______. I am using a bit of hyperbole to stress the point. We used to talk quite a bit here about normative Christianity and if one carefully notes the conduct and character of the scriptures when it comes to the super natural as we are want to describe it, it is almost 'always' downplayed. It is a matter of course, normative - not surprising at all. I am not in the least astonished when the Lord does anything that He wills to do. We have a generation of disheveled saints that launch forth and flirt about like butterflies from one 'extreme' to another. If it is not dramatic and overblown, something on the order of Lakeland then on to the next thrill seeking adventure. We have no patience or desire to be content with who the Lord is in Himself but must be stirred up continually, have our soulish senses satisfied at every moment or were bored with it all. The Lord Himself is not enough, [i]what's in it for me[/i]?

My mother died about a year and half ago now. She battled, valiantly I might add, cancer- Endured not one but two major brain surgeries which brought my praying to the depths of marrow, of everything within me. Heal her Oh Lord for thy Names sake! She fell and broke her hip and I prayed all the more and petitioned everyone here for their help. We found out that it was due to a second tumor in her brain that likely caused her to fall in the first place, knocking off her equilibrium. My mothers toughness not the least likely brought about in part to her upbringing, faith and living through the depression, a father who took his own life and the greatest utterance of all that came from her lips during this time; "[i]I put my trust in God[/i]." Said with such a confidence and depth of meaning I will never ever forget it. So strong was she internally, this almost hard to put your finger on aspect of some people - that she was able to go into surgery for the now broken off end of the hip joint, the ball end, have it replaced and then two days later go in for the second [i]brain surgery[/i]. I tell you one thing my folks (and I am adopted mind you) exude a confidence that betrays the likes of some many weaker minds and hearts. They have no fear of death, it is almost uncanny, almost [i]matter of course[/i] certainty that I am sometimes embarrassed when I allow myself down into the stupidest notions of worry and anxiety over the light afflictions and circumstantial day to day things that can so grip me at times.

But my prayers for her healing where perhaps partially answered. I will be honest, there were times when the tension was fairly intense. It is the very root of this subject matter; Do I believe and trust the Lord or not? Will You, Oh Lord in fact heal her and restore her? I prayed the likes of a prayer of Isaiah and Hezekiah;

[i]I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore. And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.

And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.[/i] 2Ki 20:3-6

Fifteen more years Oh Lord ... And strange thing that even in knowing and believing (of course!) that this was entirely possible, that even before the thoughts were fully formed that this request would be denied. It was an intuition and not unbelief ... (Truthfully this was where I was really hoping to go with all this, being led of the Spirit, grappling with the Gods wisdom over against the foolishness of mere men and so forth, but still I digress ...)I was perfectly content however, there is an understanding with the Lord that is very difficult to articulate. In the midst of all of these things, there where still answers to prayer. The first brain surgery we were warned because of the tumors location could leave her speech confounded amongst other greater problems - Use your imagination to suppose what might have been going through our thoughts ... What a tremendous joy it was to go in and see her afterwords, after she came to from the surgery and see her smile and talk like she had gone out for coffee, not having half her scalp opened up.

All the way through the Lord was there, His will and purposes, His giving of peace at all the right moments, even the subtle fair warning the day He took her home to be with Himself (The Lord is in need of her I remember thinking). I knew it the morning of the day and arrived at the house only minutes after she had gone on. Precious God to allow all this to happen at home and not in a noisy hospital and furthermore that I could be there to kiss her goodbye, hold her hand and pray the sweetest most profound prayers for those minutes when time stood still and great peace was so evident. I am so grateful to God for the way all of it came about.

I still have much to say and really think it a shame if we leave off all this tremendous subject half baked and half finished. There is a great deal of help to so many if we can really derive what the Lord meant in this realm and how all this applies to our faith, to the Lords wisdom and how we are to appropriate it.

Not to jump too far ahead but if we can establish the foundation of Gods sovereignty there is still;

[i]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.[/i] Joh 14:14

To wrestle with.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/8/31 12:12Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Perhaps I should request our brother Paul West to inform us of what a decaying corpse is comprised of being that he is a mortician as well as a preacher ...


It's interesting you mention this, because this morning while taking a shower I was thinking about death (I know, I know - big surprise for a mortician to be thinking about death while taking a shower), and how it might be fair for the proponents of the God "always" mindset to apply their theology to physical death the same why they do physical sickness.

I say this for obvious reasons. Jesus always raised the dead, he never turned away a corpse; every occurence in the NT where Jesus comes in contact with a corpse, He raises it (we don't know if Jesus ever went to the grave of John the Baptist). If we use this same logic as certain men apply to sickness, we also have reason to [b]infer[/b] that it is God's will to "always" raise the dead when faith is employed. Jesus raised the dead - and he did so even in the midst of mockery and unbelief. So this precludes the faith element which many of these charlatans lean on to explain a non-healing. This may also explain why faith healers exact their trade only on healing the living and not reversing death - indeed, hypnosis, lack of faith accusations, and psychosomatics have no effect on a dead man. If [i]you[/i] have the faith of a mustard seed and will that God raise the dead by virture of Jesus' many examples in the NT - without first consulting the will of God, like you do with sickness - I unhesitatingly invite you to the funeral home.

The same Word of God that says "by His stripes we are healed" also says that "death is swallowed up by victory." Can we not extrapolate that we also have the victory over physical death, and claim it by faith? You believe and apply this as "always" in the physical concerning sickness, so why not death? I am deliberately speaking as a fool here, for we know that all continue to physically die even though those in Christ have eternal life; in the same sense the Word of God says that[i] we are already healed[/i], even though many are physically sick. Spiritually, these scriptures assure God keeps His promise; [i]physically,[/i] however, we see that all still die, and many of God's mightiest men, men full of faith and bathed in unceasing prayer from the saints (Pentecostal believers incuded), die by disease and sickness. O Death, where is thy boast? "Right here!" Death could say, as the world buries yet another Christian, despite all the prayer of faith having gone up to heaven for healing, by both the afflicted and those who prayed for him.

You cannot separate the two: sickness and death. Both entered into our race by Adam's sin, with the former often serving as the antechamber for the latter. You must take a great leap in exegesis to prove God wills to [i]always[/i] banish one in the physical, yet allow the other to manifest itself with uncontested certainty.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/31 13:59Profile





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