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Joshh
Member



Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

I will try to address Paul and crsschk's posts to the best of my ability, then make a request at the end.

Paul, regarding the books that set them free from legalism and helped them prosper: These books take on prevailing thought found in western churches today. He shows how tithing, the way it is taught today, is completely unbiblical. The only people required to tithe in the OT were people who raised livestock and crops. That was to feed the Levites, who had a heave offering. He goes through the tithes of Abraham and Jacob, and explores what is said on tithing in the NT. He also is advocating the notion that as a NT Christian, we own nothing. Everything in our possession belongs to God, and we are to be stewards of it. He warns against greed, and tells of how God has required him on several occasions to give everything he owned away, and how it is a very real possibility that He might require the same of us.

As far as the TACF goes, he has ministered there. However, he also has said that he does disagree with some things that they teach, and that they disagree with some things he teaches.

Crsschk, they way he developed his beliefs on healing was looking at the words and actions of Jesus. His premise of it always being God's will to heal is because Jesus shows that. He was ALWAYS willing to heal those who came to him, and only Jesus is the perfect revelation of the Invisible God.

Part of the reason we don't see the healings today is that we are taught to doubt, which will effect our results, which will cause us to doubt, which will effect our results...It is a self fulfilling prophecy.

As far as gifts being developed, well, it would be very hard for a person who doesn't believe that the gift of healing is still in affect today to get that gift. His main point is how open you are to receiving these gifts.

Now about your personal situation: I have no doubt you're convinced that God can heal you. You question if he will or not. What I would say to help your unbelief is to study Jesus and how he healed people. The only requirement was that the people come to Him. The Gospels show that you can't earn a healing, or anything else. It comes to you by the grace of God because of what Jesus has done on the cross. I hope you will see that God not only can heal you, but he wants to heal too.

Now, as for my request: If you scroll down to the bottom of Roger's page, you will find a link to the “pray and obey” section. So I will ask all of you who want to know about Dr. Sapp's theology to click on that and follow the policy, and then read, watch, and listen to all the materials there.

My other request: It has come to my attention that we have hijacked this thread from Dirk's original reason for posting. So if you would like to talk about Roger later, well, please follow the above paragraph and then post a thread about what you would like to discuss. But I would like to get back to Dirk's topic and stop posting about the theology of Dr. Sapp.

 2008/8/29 3:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Krispy, If you really want to see documentation, I can ask for it. However, you need to be aware that for him to share this with the public, the sick person would have to get that medical report from the doctor, send it to Roger, and sign a release saying that he can share it with other people. If he doesn't have all of that, you won't see it. Now, I will tell you that I know person who has had Roger at his church, and he did tell me that people went to the doctor and testified that they were confirmed healed. I've also googled his name and seen people who have been to his meetings and have claimed to be healed.



I understand all the legal and privacy issues involved with such a request... however, if someone wanted to truly testify of what the Lord has done for them, for at least some of the 20,000 folks healed under his ministry it wouldnt be an issue. I'd be happy to see 10.

For instance, in Lakeland they made some pretty bold claims of healing... yet not [b]one[/b] single case was verified. I'm not putting Mr. Sapp in the same category with Bentley by any means, but simply saying "where's the beef"?

Krispy

 2008/8/29 8:10









 Re: all will be healed?

HI Dirk....there is nothing in the Scriptures to suggest that alll are healed. Are there Scriptures so suggest that Jesus healed all on a certain day ? Yes. Is there Scriptures to suggest that those who helped spread the Gospel got sick? Yes. Of course Paul was not "healed." I wrote a piece called "Yet not my Will but yours be done(will we always be healed)

http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2008/06/02/yet-no-my-will-but-yours-be-donewill-we-always-be-healed/
This may answer some of your questions. I think this piece carries a little extra weight since I myself, 15 years ago, was the recipient of a healing miracle. I was healed of Pulmanory Fibrosis, which I was in the third stage of. I have x-rays and Cat scans and bi-opsies. You can read of that account in "Anatomy of a Miracle."
http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2008/02/13/anatomy-of-a-miracle/

 2008/8/29 8:22









 Re:

Quote:
Now as far as him being WoF, I really wonder how open minded you are when you're reading what he says. I've never heard a WoFer warn people of being greedy, and use Eph 5 to equate greed with sexual sin, yet Roger does that. I've never heard comeone like Copeland, Dollar, etc tell people of multiple times God has required them to give every possession away, but Roger has. 3 times, in fact. Paul Washer, one of the favorites here, has had to twice. In reality, Roger is more into returning the church to they way it was in the first century then he is a WoFer. Perhaps you can tell me how his article called "The subtle Spirit of Antichrist" is WoF. Tell me how "Early Church Rules for Traveling Ministry" is WoF. "Honoring the Truth-Teller"?



No, you're misunderstanding me. I recognize that Sapp doesnt seem to be in the "Blab it and Grab it" crowd. That's not what I'm saying. But his teachings on healing are very much in the camp of WOF. At least thats what I getting out of it.

I do respect what he has to say about greed and things like that. He's right on... tho I cringe when I read about his dream and resulting financial "blessing" and purchase of the house in TX. The indication to the reader is "you can have all this too!"... like an infomercial.

Krispy

 2008/8/29 8:30









 Re:

Quote:
He has been a guest speaker frequently at the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship.



Being a guest speaker at TACF speaks loudly... they have taught such blatant heresy there that at the very least it shows a lack of judgement on the part of Sapp. We are never encouraged in the Bible to join in unity with heretics. In fact, we are [b]commanded[/b] in scripture to "mark and avoid" them. In the OT they were to be stoned.

Krispy

 2008/8/29 8:32
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Crsschk, they way he developed his beliefs on healing was looking at the words and actions of Jesus. His premise of it always being God's will to heal is because Jesus shows that. He was ALWAYS willing to heal those who came to him, and only Jesus is the perfect revelation of the Invisible God.



Let me emphasize your own statement, [i]He was always WILLING to heal those who came to him[/i] ... This is the issue, even the one that started off this post. But that is different than putting all the mysteries of Gods working into categorical form.

Quote:
Part of the reason we don't see the healings today is that we are taught to doubt, which will effect our results, which will cause us to doubt, which will effect our results...It is a self fulfilling prophecy.



While partially true the concurring element is also great presumption which effects the results, see James for more on this.

Quote:
Now about your personal situation: I have no doubt you're convinced that God can heal you. You question if he will or not. What I would say to help your unbelief is to study Jesus and how he healed people. The only requirement was that the people come to Him. The Gospels show that you can't earn a healing, or anything else. It comes to you by the grace of God because of what Jesus has done on the cross. I hope you will see that God not only can heal you, but he wants to heal too.



Well apparently you did not take the time to read that carefully. I was not asking for healing for myself ... There comes a point where the rubber needs to met the road, 'put up or shut up' - That was my emphasis and plea - There are some sufferings of loved ones that I would give my own life to see alleviated, even of the pain of my own Brethrens loved ones, to alleviate [i]both[/i] the sufferer and the one suffering under the weight of burden for their loved ones. To be practically blunt about it, there is a whole lot of talk and little action, results. Tales we have thousands of, give me something I can put my hands on.

Many of us have been through the motions of the false constructs and seen the incredibly galling aspects of real people with real sickness and disabilities, of mental torment and a whole host of issues [i]turned away[/i] by the charlatans of this hour. They are frauds of the worst kind giving a psychological pablum to manipulate and play on the emotions -

Quote:
As far as gifts being developed, well, it would be very hard for a person who doesn't believe that the gift of healing is still in affect today to get that gift. His main point is how open you are to receiving these gifts.



I did recognize that I had botched that somewhat. The point of the matter is [i]IF[/i] you have this gift and as Paul pointed out, not all do. His premise again is that anyone [i]can[/i] have it which is not what the scriptures teach.

Quote:
Now, as for my request: If you scroll down to the bottom of Roger's page, you will find a link to the “pray and obey” section. So I will ask all of you who want to know about Dr. Sapp's theology to click on that and follow the policy, and then read, watch, and listen to all the materials there.



I will give it a read.

Quote:
My other request: It has come to my attention that we have hijacked this thread from Dirk's original reason for posting. So if you would like to talk about Roger later, well, please follow the above paragraph and then post a thread about what you would like to discuss. But I would like to get back to Dirk's topic and stop posting about the theology of Dr. Sapp.



Postings take on a life of their own sometimes and in this case it still applies to the original questions as the perspectives are brought forth. I would also ask you being new to this surrounding (and to others) to also use the search functions on healing for past discussions. You brought up this particular brother and seeing that you are aligned with him in agreement with his theology there is nothing wrong with putting it as well as yourself to the test, just as you are doing with others here.

Truly, we are after the truth I pray more than wining an argument.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/8/29 10:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Let me emphasize your own statement, He was always WILLING to heal those who came to him ... This is the issue, even the one that started off this post. But that is different than putting all the mysteries of Gods working into categorical form.



Just like I am "willing" to give my kids the best of everything, and would love to lavish them with whatever they want... however, I don't because I know that won't help them grow and mature into godly men.

Krispy

 2008/8/29 10:30
Joshh
Member



Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
Let me emphasize your own statement, He was always WILLING to heal those who came to him ... This is the issue, even the one that started off this post. But that is different than putting all the mysteries of Gods working into categorical form.



Just like I am "willing" to give my kids the best of everything, and would love to lavish them with whatever they want... however, I don't because I know that won't help them grow and mature into godly men.

Krispy

There is a difference between giving them everything they want and a parent letting their kid die of cancer. Jesus said that if we know how to give good gifts to our kids, how much more will the Father in Heaven give good gifts to those who ask Him. He was basically giving us a standard to see how God treats his kids. If your kids did something bad, would you throw acid in their eyes, blinding them for life to teach them a lesson? Neither would God.

 2008/8/30 4:33Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Getting the facts straight

2Ki 13:14 Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness whereof he died. 2Ki 13:20 And Elisha died, and they buried him.

Psa 41:3 The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness.

Isa 38:12 Mine age is departed, and is removed from me as a shepherd's tent: I have cut off like a weaver my life: he will cut me off with pining sickness: from day even to night wilt thou make an end of me.

Quote:
He was basically giving us a standard to see how God treats his kids.



Which is what only fits into a nice tidy idealism, that premise that all this is built upon, namely [i]Always[/i]. This "always" has got to be one of the worst esegesis of scripture on any number of items. It refuses to take into account all the counsel, experience and breadth of what God has already spoken.

[i]Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?[/i] Isa 45:9

[i]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [/i] Rom 9:18-24

Do you not realize that in effect one can be misrepresenting God Himself all the while thinking that they are defending Him?

[i] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out![/i] Rom 11:33

Nay you would say, God [i]always[/i] ... it is sheer presumption and like many other things caries an arrogance with it. Not unlike the prophets of our hour speaking vain things from their vain imaginations when the truth of the matter is that He is not telling us the future in all this exacting detail. It is patently false. It is also just as evident that despite all the contortions of scripture to make them say otherwise it is not [i]always[/i] His will to heal. There is a mountain of evidence to confute these notions, even right here in your midst. To put the blame on the sufferers [i]always[/i] is the height of audacity even if it is done by inference and implication.

We have in our midst hospice workers, nurses, those who have worked in ER situations - They have spoken here on this subject and have far more to say then I, but it is shoved aside as is the challenge to prove out these theories. Read these and explain them, explain them away if you dare or better yet put your gift if you have it to real use. Indeed I am a bit indignant over this. Giving you the benefit of the doubt is one thing but your arrogance is revealing ... do you really care about the relieving of the suffering and sickness that you propose is [i]always[/i] available? Or is it just a theological puzzle put to argumentation?


[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=24725&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Dear Saints on SI please read[/url]

Read it all the way through. What you do not know as you have no longevity here is the tremendous life of the Lord that is in this precious saint. A pastors pastor, a man of evenness and restraint, of great love and patience with the likes of us all here - Put your theology to work and heal this man of God.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=24855&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Please pray![/url]

Weep for her. Pray for her. Heal her!

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=24777&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Your Prayers Needed[/url]

This dear brother of ours who we have had sometimes no small controversy over pedantic Calvinistic constructs - All of which matters little when his very marriage is on the line. "Physical" sickness is not the only matter that falls into aspects of healing ...

Lastly. Art Katz. One of the most incredible, penetrating and decidedly different man of God to ever come into my hearing and blessed acquaintance even if it was only a matter of so few words. He challenged and still challenges many of us on so many levels, not the least on the matter of [i]authenticity[/i] and thrusting through the sword of [i]spirit and truth[/i] to the dividing of soul and spirit. This man had no theological hang ups and no guile to even be something 'charismatic' while outstripping the charismatics in needed rebuke for their false things.

But it was a long drawn out illness that he suffered, despite all our praying and all the praying of saints around the world. Now you tell me just why that is? Read it, note the dates, note the duration, read it all and fit it into your always theology and tell us where the let down is;

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=13518&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Art Katz' health[/url]

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=13866&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]URGENT PRAYER NEEDED FOR ART KATZ[/url]

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14715&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]How many will agree to fast and pray a day with me for Bro. Art Katz to be healed. Latest update[/url]

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=17572&forum=44&post_id=&refresh=Go]Art Katz - Urgent !!![/url]

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=14613&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Art Katz Feb. 5th[/url]

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=17666&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Art Katz Goes Home[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/8/30 9:22Profile
Lowly
Member



Joined: 2007/10/13
Posts: 41


 Re:

Joshh said,

"There is a difference between giving them everything they want and a parent letting their kid die of cancer. Jesus said that if we know how to give good gifts to our kids, how much more will the Father in Heaven give good gifts to those who ask Him. He was basically giving us a standard to see how God treats his kids. If your kids did something bad, would you throw acid in their eyes, blinding them for life to teach them a lesson? Neither would God."

Here is where we err in the full knowledge of God...........

For He did not spare His own Son.......
He allowed Him to be crucified...
To be beaten.....mocked.....spit on.......scourged......despised......falsely accused........put to shame........stripped.....
This was to accomplish the Will of our Heavenly Father..

God called Israel His son, and yet.....
He sold them into slavery........He allowed famine, the sword, plagues..........to come upon them

Forgive me if this has already been illustrated.......

Yes, we cannot fathom the depth of God's love to us, but we must receive the full counsel of His word in order to truly Know Him.

He has revealed to us who He is, we must not create Him in our own image...........

In His Amazing Love,
Lowly
________________________________
Learn of Me, I am meek and lowly of heart...............

 2008/8/30 9:56Profile





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