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Joshh
Member



Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

Krispy, I don't think death could be the ultimate healing. Seriously, someone with a bad back and blind living that way for 40 years and they die and we call it a healing? Where in the Bible do you see that? Do you see Jesus saying to anyone coming to him that they would have to die to get healed? And while I'm sorry your friend died, I disagree that God wanted her to go from cancer.

I'm not going to get into an argument about whether we limit God's power by doubt and unbelief or he chooses not to display his power. However, to say our beliefs and doubts don't play a role in seeing the power of God is wrong.

Mark 11:23-24:

For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

James 1:6-7

But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

 2008/8/28 14:17Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Joshh,

While I agree that unbelief needs to be addressed in the body today, the "name it and claim it" doctrine should NEVER be embraced. As you know, a doctrine of healing cannot be comprised of bits and pieces of the Bible and patchworked together. The Lord has given man a full gospel to use, and it should be.

By embracing this doctrine, one can assume that they have power to change the Lord's will in dealing with man, taking away the soverign authority of the Lord. Does man play a part? Yes. Why do I say that? Because the Bible says so. The Lord is soverign.


Also, the passage that you quoted in Mark, though wonderful, is interpreted many ways. Some take this passage as breaking down strongholds in the spiritual realm and not the physical. Asking for things that are not of this earth.

Also, the verse you quoted in James 1:6-7, what is your views on the beginning of this book, specifically James 1:2-4 in its entirety?

Do you read the beginning of these verses as the Lord allowing believers to go through times of trial to create a patient attitude and trust in the Lord? That this patience will lead to a perfect work? What is the patience that we are to endure, learn and grow from and is it to be prolonged so the Lord can teach and mold us.

Thanks in advance brother. :-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/8/28 14:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
As you know, a doctrine of healing cannot be comprised of bits and pieces of the Bible and patchworked together.



... which is what is being propogated here. You can say it isnt WOF all day long, but the fact is this is exactly what WOF teaches. I'm researching these websites you're telling us to look at, and while it uses different language and wording... it smacks of WOF all the way thru.

Even on another thread there is a conversation about Jesus suffering in hell. Another WOF heresy.

Krispy

 2008/8/28 15:10
Joshh
Member



Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

Miccah, I'll get to your questions later tonight as I'm on break from work and need to get back soon. I will say though that I don't see how I have patchworked anything. I've simply taken what Jesus did and said and made my beliefs from that. I've also seen people who don't agree with me take some things in the Bible, and combine that with their personal experience to form their beliefs. That is a patchwork. No matter how our personal experience effects us, it doesn't trump the revelation of the Bible.

 2008/8/28 16:14Profile









 Re:

joshh... one thing that is always missing from the discussion of healing is medical documentation of said healings by those who profess the gift of healing, or have "healing ministries".

Since you're friends w/ Mr. Sapp might it be possible for you to provide us with serious medical documentation of healings thru his ministry?

This is a serious request, I'm not prodding you.

Krispy

 2008/8/28 16:20
Joshh
Member



Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

Miccah, first of all, it would depend on what you're claiming! I found this site looking for David Wilkerson sermons, and he has one titled "perfect righteousness, your inheritance, claim it". And I agree with him, there is nothing wrong with claiming that. Now I do think there is something wrong with claiming a car or mansion or something, however.

Again, I haven't patched anything together, my beliefs on healing comes right from the words and actions of Jesus. People who base their healing doctrine on their own experience and the Bible is a patchwork. And while I agree with you that God is soverign, he does grant some responsability to us.

Dealing with Mark 11, I agree it can apply to the spiritual, however, Jesus spoke those words regarding the fig tree he cursed.

As far as James goes, I wothout a doubt believe we will go through difficult times while on the earth. We live in a fallen world, and bad things will happen to good people. However, I don't believe that this is talking about sickness, as looking at Jesus, he always healed those who came to him un faith needing a healing.

 2008/8/28 21:06Profile
Joshh
Member



Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

Krispy, If you really want to see documentation, I can ask for it. However, you need to be aware that for him to share this with the public, the sick person would have to get that medical report from the doctor, send it to Roger, and sign a release saying that he can share it with other people. If he doesn't have all of that, you won't see it. Now, I will tell you that I know person who has had Roger at his church, and he did tell me that people went to the doctor and testified that they were confirmed healed. I've also googled his name and seen people who have been to his meetings and have claimed to be healed.

Now as far as him being WoF, I really wonder how open minded you are when you're reading what he says. I've never heard a WoFer warn people of being greedy, and use Eph 5 to equate greed with sexual sin, yet Roger does that. I've never heard comeone like Copeland, Dollar, etc tell people of multiple times God has required them to give every possession away, but Roger has. 3 times, in fact. Paul Washer, one of the favorites here, has had to twice. In reality, Roger is more into returning the church to they way it was in the first century then he is a WoFer. Perhaps you can tell me how his article called "The subtle Spirit of Antichrist" is WoF. Tell me how "Early Church Rules for Traveling Ministry" is WoF. "Honoring the Truth-Teller"?

 2008/8/28 21:22Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Like Krispy, I too had never heard of Roger Sapp until now. Through a website called "All Nations Ministries and Publications" (the first link I clicked on after entering his name in a search), I found a little bio on him. I don't know how accurate or reliable this information is, but it's on a site that appears to be pro Roger Sapp. Here are a few highlights from the whole. The website can be found [url=http://www.allnationsmin.org/aboutrogersapp.aspx]here[/url].

Quote:
Since that time approximately 20,000 healings, deliverances, and creative miracles have accompanied his ministry. For more than ten years he has been equipping other believers to do Christ-like healing.

Quote:
Many have commented that these books were set them free from legalism and they finally began to see continual blessing in their finances.

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He holds a Bachelor, a Master of Divinity and Doctor of Philosophy degrees.

Quote:
He has been a guest speaker frequently at the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship.

Quote:
Through a divine dream, Dr. Sapp was able to purchase a very large house in Springtown, Texas where he and his wife live.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/28 22:42Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Actually had done the same. It is his site. Read through the greater portion of the "Healing Q & A" ...

To be fair I did not get the feeling that this was necessarily of a WOF construct though I did have to hold back a bit with the affiliations mentioned (TACF) after reading the bio as well.

There is actually some pretty good arguments and I must admit that this is an area that has always proved difficult, I think it is intensified precisely due to the abuse that many of us are familiar with. In this day and age to [i]doubt[/i] is a blessing to put it paradoxically, frankly.

I think Josh does deserve some kudos for the way he has handled himself here over all, it's quite a bit of patience shown.

The proverbial but? It still seems there is something of a premise however at the onset and that everything is being measured by that. I am again returning to the site in question. That premise is that it is [i]always[/i] the Lords will to heal. Even the suppositions that he must give way to are met still with an [i]answer[/i]. An answer to each and every question, that puts me back a bit on the .... hmmm level. I do not mean purposefully, intentionally or deceivingly but just as matter of course. It is almost subtle but it is there. "We do not know" is often stated yet a speculation is forwarded anyway and driven back to the premise. It just seems that in many cases it would simply be more honest to say "I do not know" or "We" do not know and leave it that.

But unbelief is a great tremendous matter and the things the Lord said do and have always given me great pause, as they ought. Those arguments are difficult to get around, they tend to be very much in your face ...

It would be very easy to get bogged down in the back in forth by example that he uses, they seem to be little things that just don't quite spell it all out. There are likewise numerous examples beyond the usual fare that are not addressed (perhaps they might be elsewhere in articles there) about God destroying places and people even the original death sentence itself was His edict not the devils (to counter a portion of that argument) .... What it seems to amount to from just this cursory reading is that what he is presenting is air tight, [i]always[/i] and that healing are either delayed (speculative) or the fault lies with ... well I would rather his own words be used than mine attempting to regurgitate them here, they would have to be read.

One thing that did stand out, that this is something that can be 'developed' which I have a very large problem with. What are gifts to begin with, something to be taken or received? It does seem that he forget about;

[i]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; ... etc. [/i] 1Co 12:8-10

Further on Paul states;

[i]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing?[/i] 1Co 12:29,30

The implication and answer is decidedly, no. So to put forth a doctrine that says otherwise, that any one can learn or "develop" a gift that is received is to deny this very admonishen.

I wanted to throw this out here earlier as a challenge and it is just as difficult not to admit a part of this as being .... not disgusted at least in this context since the participants are not being really unruly about it all but just in honesty ... If there is someone here who has this gift of healing in true earnestness and truly cares about whether someone gets healed ... I know of two examples right here, one is as close to me as can be and the other is a dear brother who once upon a time had a very agonizing post going and as far as I know the healing for his wife has not come to pass. Lest I forget there is also a marriage on the line right now from a dear brother that frequents this forum. So, three examples. If those who are assured of all that they believe and all the more power to you honestly, if you have this gift will you not pray for these three? And am I wrong to expect some tangible evidence that they have been effected in the very near future? Please understand this is as earnest a plea as it is a challenge. I would go into all the sordid details in my situation but that have been aired out here over the years already, it has been a tremendously painful experience at times, having tried all that I know, every prayer and guttural instinct I can ... upchuck from my spirit to put it crassly. I have tried not trying and letting it all go, I have cried tears of "Help my unbelief" to believe that the Lord would heal ... Years of this. At the moment it is rather subdued honestly but in the days ahead it will come back in heartbreak and pain and confusion, in pleading and hope and even more prayer, it is never giving up ... but how long, Oh Lord?

To think that there are not others out there in similar and far worse circumstances .. Does this help our particular predicaments gain an understanding? That it is not all so simple as some make it out to be?

A great deal more could be said ...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/8/29 0:18Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

From the shopping page on the website:

Quote:
A beautifully printed certificate suitable for framing signed by Dr. Roger Sapp that certifies that the recipient has completed the Group or Self-Study Course for Performing Miracles and Healing. $7.00



Quote:
This is a "how to" message about getting the right "inner chemistry" to be healed and to heal the sick. $25.00 $17.50



Quote:
One copy of the Self-Study Course and one copy of the book "Performing Miracles and Healing". A $32.00 value for $25.00.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/29 0:55Profile





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