SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : So Which is it, Was Adam purposed to Fall or was he purposed for the incarnation of Christ Jesus?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
I want to add to something I said earlier.

Jesus was "Perfected", "Completed" [b]as a perfect human[/b] through obedience to His Father.
To to become divine.

[b]Heb 10:14[/b] [color=990000]by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified[/color]

After Christ was deemed a "perfect Man" through His sufferings & obedience to His Father, He then "perfected us" who are set apart by/in/through/according to faith with repentance.

After Christ is deem a perfect man, we are deem perfect men.



Deemed, but to be proven, just like Jesus, eh? . .)) Think about it . .in our actuality it comes together like that, doesn't it? I don't believe your life is any different than mine in that regard. BTW, you are born again, aren't you?

 2008/8/5 15:33









 Re:

Quote:
Nice pun :-P

God knows that sole worship of Him is the best thing for the benefit of man.
God knows that if man was autonomous it would be the end of him, as we all know from experience.

If God was an true egomaniac He would be selfish and self-centered, but the contrary, His thoughts are toward and His intentions are sacrificially for our benefit.



That doesn't mesh with your other remark.

[b]Can we return to the OP, now?[/b]

 2008/8/5 15:36









 Re: He was the Son of Man, and the eternal Son of God!

Quote:

Ormly wrote:

RE: Tom,

Though I believe most all you say, you nevertheless say enough that would confuse anyone trying to connect the dots.

God can't die, ergo, God wasn't on the cross. Don't call that comment heretical. It's not arguable. Consider you can't make distinctions running with your present theology while dismissing anything that might cause you to think.

So quit, RIGHT NOW, with the accusations. I am a Christian and I have no axe to grind. If you want to discuss using the scriptures, that's find. You might begin by citing relevant ones instead of those you have posted, that aren't. . . All quoting the writers speaking of Jesus AFTER the fact of the cross and glorification. Again, make better distinctions.

Keep in mind, this is all about God's original intention for Adam.

Why is it Tom, that Jesus needed to obey His Father? Answer that, please.

Answer: Jesus was the Son of God, and the Son of man. To be the Son of Man, He also had to overcome by Faith. ....... Divide and conquer? I think not. Jesus said, "Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they grind them, and vomit them back at your feet."


This is that. I am not saying you are a swine. But the principle is there. In the face of reason, and much compassion and patience, you adamantly defy all careful truth streaming your way, and gnash , and grind, and smugly assert your right to disown the Bible as our only compass, and banner of fellowship. To answer your question, yes, I am born from above, as I was baptized in the Holy Spirit poured out within me, in the name of Jesus, and by Him.


But , Oh...that would make Him God, wouldn't it?



My accusations will be kept for bigger fish, if you don't mind. The brethren and sisters here have exposed enough for me, to assure me that you are an unbeliever, and you may be a God hater; I hope not.


I am taking your advice, and quitting, right now. I hope you still have a conscience left, that can hear truth when He comes to you. Thank you for your post and thread though. This has worked out unto the glory of God, as those approved of God have been manifest to stand, and I have been proud to witness the patience shown you, in spite of yourself. Jesus is Lord, just as he appeared to Abraham! Tom

 2008/8/5 17:23









 Re:

Quote:
If you want to discuss using the scriptures, that's find. You might begin by citing relevant ones instead of those you have posted, that aren't. . . All quoting the writers speaking of Jesus AFTER the fact of the cross and glorification. Again, make better distinctions.



How's this:

[i][b]Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.[/b][/i]

Dear sermonindex brethren,

this Ormly fellow is deceived and teaching damnable doctrine. Let us pray for him that his eyes be opened. I would admonish everyone to take serious caution when dealing with him and to seriously disregard any additional "insights" and "revelations" he has into the Scriptures on any subject, for a blind man can't see anything. He is propagating strange doctrine and if so wrong about such fundamental issues, no doubt other things must be off too, for if the foundations be destroyed, neither can the house stand.

To deny that the Lord Jesus was ALWAYS divine, and to say that He wasn't God in the flesh when he was hanged upon that old Cross when that blessed Emmanuel became a curse in our stead, is to deny the Gospel. For if He wasn't fully divine, His blood was no better than the blood of any other man, or bull, or goat. No, Adam could not "attain" divinity and be the Savior of the world, and Jesus Christ was the Word as God who took on flesh, fully God yet fully man, who from eternity past was predestined to redeem fallen man in the fullness of time.

 2008/8/5 20:14
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

I don’t know Ormly but maybe he didn’t explain himself to well.

Now we all know that Jesus the man is God manifest in the flesh.

We know also that Jesus said God is Spirit. We know that Jesus is God and Man, and I can’t speak for Ormly but hopefully he believes this also.

We know that Jesus as very God emptied himself and became man to die as a man on the cross. The Word is God and did die as a man but we know that God (as Spirit) can never die. Maybe he was saying the spirit of God didn’t die on the cross but only God the man. We know that Jesus gave up His Spirit to the Father and died as a man.

Even us when we die as a man our spirit is released from our body and will keep on existing either in heaven or in hell but want have a body again until the resurrection.

I don’t quite follow Ormly when he talks about divinity because we shouldn’t think that we will be in the Godhead. We will have the divine nature and be a glorified man but we will not be deity. It would be heresy to think such.

Still a cause for concern though because I really don’t quite follow Ormly.

I pray that he will clear himself in this matter.

Blessings to all!

 2008/8/5 21:24Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Ormly said:

Quote:
What we can see from scripture is...supportive that Adam was to be what Jesus became, i.e., a Divine-Human representative in the Godhead


Behold the reason for concocting this thread: the propagation of the abovementioned teaching. The intro question poised was merely the springboard to set the weapon's sights downfield. As Ron Bailey once said, such people are not looking for discussions, but surrenders.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/6 0:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Josef_Urban wrote:
Quote:
If you want to discuss using the scriptures, that's find. You might begin by citing relevant ones instead of those you have posted, that aren't. . . All quoting the writers speaking of Jesus AFTER the fact of the cross and glorification. Again, make better distinctions.



Quote:
How's this:

[i][b]Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.[/b][/i]



I already quoted that one. Pay attention. "Thou shalt call His Name Emanuel . .." Remember?

Quote:
Dear sermonindex brethren,

this Ormly fellow is deceived and teaching damnable doctrine. Let us pray for him that his eyes be opened. I would admonish everyone to take serious caution when dealing with him and to seriously disregard any additional "insights" and "revelations" he has into the Scriptures on any subject, for a blind man can't see anything. He is propagating strange doctrine and if so wrong about such fundamental issues, no doubt other things must be off too, for if the foundations be destroyed, neither can the house stand.

To deny that the Lord Jesus was ALWAYS divine,



I didn't say that either. I didn't deny He wasn't always divine. I qualified it. I made distinctions. You aren't reading, or don't want to.

Quote:
and to say that He wasn't God in the flesh when he was hanged upon that old Cross when that blessed Emmanuel became a curse in our stead, is to deny the Gospel. For if He wasn't fully divine, His blood was no better than the blood of any other man, or bull, or goat. No, Adam could not "attain" divinity and be the Savior of the world, and Jesus Christ was the Word as God who took on flesh, fully God yet fully man, who from eternity past was predestined to redeem fallen man in the fullness of time.



What is strange is because you aren't reading me correctly and yet accuse.

You say the blood of Jesus needed to be divine for man to be forgiven. That isn't so. Only sinless blood was needed. Jesus was sinless. He qualified. The only way He could be sinless was to first start out that way and then protect His sinlessness. Since creation was over, only being born of the Father/Holy Ghost could accomplish His beginnings. . . Normal man entering the world from the outside to redeem fallen mankind for the Father. Doesn't that also speak of the new birth of a believer? Isn't that what the newborn are given to be, to protect and to do?
Get that part correct first then perhaps a few other things may fall into place. Get understanding.

Whose next . . .

 2008/8/6 4:31









 Re:

[b]

Quote:

rbanks wrote:
I don’t know Ormly but maybe he didn’t explain himself to well.



I have a tendency to wait until the storm quiets down. This is always overwhelming for most and that I might be speaking heresy. I'm not. However, neither do I mean to infer I am fully correct. I haven't arrived.

Quote:
Now we all know that Jesus the man is God manifest in the flesh.



Lets make a distinction here: You [and I] are to be manifesting God in the flesh. Lets speak now of the differences between Jesus and us. Given the Nature of the Father the resurrection affords us called the , "[u]work[/u] of the cross", it is a learning process to be walked out in Christ Jesus called the [u]"way"[/u] of the cross, wherein He leads. Upon the new birth, the imputation of the Nature of the Father, a child is born and by the impartation of His Character; produces the Life the Father is looking for from His child, the son is then given back to the Father.. It is called the 'way of the cross' for that reason. We learn by His example and what we suffer and all for the sake of the Father do we do it. Jesus did that. That is why I have been asking if you [all] were born again.

Quote:
We know also that Jesus said God is Spirit. We know that Jesus is God and Man, and I can’t speak for Ormly but hopefully he believes this also.



Again, lets qualify: The Word became flesh. In the process, He, the Word, laid aside His divinty that the "body prepared for Him" could suffer and die. Upon successful completion of the task given the body called Jesus, The Word picked it all back up and kept His perfected body to forever abide in, glorifying it in the Godhead.. The Word now has nail prints in His hands. The reason for creation is now complete in Him. All In Heaven is now waiting for the "sheaves" to be gathered up, for the wedding banquet to begin. You partly say as much below:

Quote:
We know that Jesus as very God emptied himself and became man to die as a man on the cross. The Word is God and did die as a man but we know that God (as Spirit) can never die. Maybe he was saying the spirit of God didn’t die on the cross but only God the man. We know that Jesus gave up His Spirit to the Father and died as a man.



Amen!

Quote:
Even us when we die as a man our spirit is released from our body and will keep on existing either in heaven or in hell but wont have a body again until the resurrection.



I like how Chambers puts it but I will use my words here: The body, the flesh of man, manifests what the soul and spirit is. In the case of Jesus, His soul and spirit were of the Father; His body [Flesh of man, "self"] walked perfectly before Him. Keep in mind, the Father, from eternity past knew He would obey, be faithful, and therefore, withheld nothing from Him that would aid Him in His walk while He was manifesting the Father on earth. At the point of temptation/solicitations the Father backed off to allow His Son to reveal His allegiance from the flesh. While it broke His Heart, this was also just one of the reasons why Father backed away when Jesus hung on the cross. Jesus never failed in His allegiance. Love kept Him, both His and the Father's.

Jesus Christ, the last Adam, states over and over again: “I can of Myself do nothing” (John 5:19, 30; see 7:16; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10).

To Phillip He said: "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father". The Man Jesus was full of Grace and truth; full of the Father. Again, this is what the new born of Him is to be. The process of becoming a son is God's complete will for everyone who claims the Name of Jesus. Again, as Chambers puts it with regards to the process: What we call the beginning, God calls the end. [Oswald Chambers My Utmost July 28] I recommend this reading to everyone . . . unless they just want to argue.

Quote:
I don’t quite follow Ormly when he talks about divinity because we shouldn’t think that we will be in the Godhead. We will have the divine nature and be a glorified man but we will not be deity. It would be heresy to think such.



And that is the reason for this thread. Read what you just wrote! 'Glorified man and yet not deity'?? That doesn't reconcile. What do you believe "joint-heir-ship" means?? Why is it heretical to believe that when Jesus reinforces it when saying: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21 (KJV)??

And John when he says: "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:5 (KJV)

Quote:
Still a cause for concern though because I really don’t quite follow Ormly.



Hang in a while longer. I am still wrestling with some issues in this as well. However, this I know: Our redemption and salvation is much more than just being about a paid up fire insurance policy; presumptuously believing by being 'wrongly' taught, we have it all when we repeated the sinners prayer. Only the prideful and self-absorbed will defend such thinking.

Hope this helps my case, rbanks.[/b]

 2008/8/6 6:03









 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Ormly said:

Quote:
What we can see from scripture is...supportive that Adam was to be what Jesus became, i.e., a Divine-Human representative in the Godhead


Behold the reason for concocting this thread: the propagation of the abovementioned teaching. The intro question poised was merely the springboard to set the weapon's sights downfield. As Ron Bailey once said, such people are not looking for discussions, but surrenders.



[b]So what is your argument? Twice before I have asked you to respond. This is my third time. Are you with all those who say God purposed Adam to fail just to redeem fallen man? Perhaps you might explain why God would do such a thing; to allow so much misery for 4K years? For His pleasure, no doubt?[/b]

 2008/8/6 6:31
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Ormly said,

You say the blood of Jesus needed to be divine for man to be forgiven. That isn't so. Only sinless blood was needed. Jesus was sinless.

Whose next . . .


I will. Acts 20:28- Be shepards of the church of God which He bought with His own blood. ( You know, I was about to end it there but verse 29 is very timely and applicable.... I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from among your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

 2008/8/6 8:37Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy