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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : So Which is it, Was Adam purposed to Fall or was he purposed for the incarnation of Christ Jesus?

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother I need not read the rest of your posts when you say things like, "God was not on the cross".

That is heretical, and is one of the most critical points in our redemption, that God being in the form of man did indeed die in the place of sinners, but was raised again.

In your view, and answer plainly, was and is Christ God?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/8/5 13:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother I need not read the rest of your posts when you say things like, "God was not on the cross".

That is heretical, and is one of the most critical points in our redemption, that God being in the form of man did indeed die in the place of sinners, but was raised again.

In your view, and answer plainly, was and is Christ God?



I have already answered that. Now, I have asked others here and have received no reply. I will ask you: Are you born again? Can you 'plainly' answer that?

 2008/8/5 13:28
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

[quoteOrmly wrote:
This is not arguable:

The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father.


Close, but, Jesus was "Perfected", "Completed" as a perfect human through obedience to His Father.
He is always divine and never wasn't.

Quote:
"Behold, I make all things new" . . NOT I make new all things. In other words, Jesus doesn't make the old things new. "Adam" is not a man made over but a totally new man. No rescue in this.

The word "NEW here is kahee-nos'
Which means of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G3501 (νέος, νεώτερος- neos neōteros) is properly so with respect to age): - new.

 2008/8/5 13:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
[quoteOrmly wrote:
This is not arguable:

The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father.

Close, but, Jesus was "Perfected", "Completed" as a perfect human through obedience to His Father.
He is always divine and never wasn't.

Quote:
"Behold, I make all things new" . . NOT I make new all things. In other words, Jesus doesn't make the old things new. "Adam" is not a man made over but a totally new man. No rescue in this.

The word "NEW here is kahee-nos'
Which means of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G3501 (νέος, νεώτερος- neos neōteros) is properly so with respect to age): - new.


Its not that difficult that understanding the word 'new' should be considered to have a different meaning in this.

I like this from Chambers that has helped me a great deal and has answered much of my curiosity in all this. Not all, but much.

[b]"God did not create Adam holy, He created him innocent, without self-consciousness (as we understand the word) before God; the one thing Adam was conscious of was God and only of himself in relation to the Being Whose commands he was to fulfill; the main trend of his spirit was towards God. Adam was intended by God to take part in his own development by a series of moral choices whereby he would transform innocence into holiness. Adam failed to do this, Jesus Christ came on the same platform as Adam and did not fail. Supposing Adam had transformed the natural life into the spiritual by obedience, what would have happened? Transfiguration; he would have “spiritualised” the natural life and made it all that God wanted it to be. The natural life is neither good nor bad, moral nor immoral; it is the principle within that makes it good or bad, moral or immoral"

"“And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon Him” (Luke 2:40 rv). The innocence of Jesus was not the innocence of a babe born into our order of things, it was the innocence of Adam as God created him, the innocence of an untried possibility of holiness. Innocence is never safe, it is simply full of possibility. The holiness of God is absolute, not progressive; that is, it knows no development by antagonism. Man’s holiness must be progressive. The holiness of Jesus developed through antagonism because He revealed what a holy man should be.
Our Lord transformed innocence into holiness by a series of moral choices. Satan tempted Him along this line: “Do God’s will according to Your own understanding; don’t sacrifice the life of nature to the will of God.” Jesus made invariably one answer—“For I am come down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me”† (John 6:38).

"How are we going to have the innocence that Jesus had? In one way only, by being born again from above. “Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:7)

"We can be brought into a state of pristine childlike innocence before God by the regenerating work of His grace. God does something infinitely grander than give a man a new start: He re-makes him from the inside. We have the power, because we have received it, to transform the natural into the spiritual even as Jesus did, because the life generated into us is His own life."[/b]

Chambers, O. (1996, c1943). Bringing sons into glory : Studies in the life of our Lord. London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott.

 2008/8/5 13:44
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: So Which is it, Was Adam purposed to Fall or was he purposed for the incarnation

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
Ormly wrote:
So Which is it, Was Adam purposed to Fall or was he purposed for the incarnation of Christ Jesus

The sole purpose of Adam was to glorify God in worship.
The only reason for the incarnation of Christ was because God knew that Adam would fall and HE made emends for that by His Son.

 2008/8/5 13:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
Ormly wrote:
Ormly wrote:
So Which is it, Was Adam purposed to Fall or was he purposed for the incarnation of Christ Jesus

The sole purpose of Adam was to glorify God in worship.
The only reason for the incarnation of Christ was because God knew that Adam would fall and HE made emends for that by His Son.



That must mean God is an egomaniac and nothing more. . . .I don't think so. . . . totally [il] 'logical'.

 2008/8/5 13:54
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Ormly, in John 12:41, the Holy Spirit reports that Isaiah saw Jesus on His throne in the vision reported in Isaiah 6:3. Since Isaiah's vision was of a fact at that time (as evidenced by the call of Isaiah to go forth) please reconcile your view with Scripture. Also, Emannuel is name given to Christ before his birth. Have they changed the meaning of that word?

 2008/8/5 14:20Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:
Quote:
Ormly wrote:
So Which is it, Was Adam purposed to Fall or was he purposed for the incarnation of Christ Jesus

The sole purpose of Adam was to glorify God in worship.
The only reason for the incarnation of Christ was because God knew that Adam would fall and HE made emends for that by His Son.

That must mean God is an egomaniac and nothing more. . . .I don't think so. . . . totally [il] 'logical'.

Nice pun :-P

God knows that sole worship of Him is the best thing for the benefit of man.
God knows that if man was autonomous it would be the end of him, as we all know from experience.

If God was an true egomaniac He would be selfish and self-centered, but the contrary, His thoughts are toward and His intentions are sacrificially for our benefit.

 2008/8/5 14:24Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

I want to add to something I said earlier.

Jesus was "Perfected", "Completed" [b]as a perfect human[/b] through obedience to His Father.
To to become divine.

[b]Heb 10:14[/b] [color=990000]by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified[/color]

After Christ was deemed a "perfect Man" through His sufferings & obedience to His Father, He then "perfected us" who are set apart by/in/through/according to faith with repentance.

After Christ is deem a perfect man, we are deem perfect men.

 2008/8/5 14:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
Ormly, in John 12:41, the Holy Spirit reports that Isaiah saw Jesus on His throne in the vision reported in Isaiah 6:3. Since Isaiah's vision was of a fact at that time (as evidenced by the call of Isaiah to go forth) please reconcile your view with Scripture.




[b]We must remember that when Isaiah saw Him, "high and lifted up". Yes. He saw this: "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." Isaiah 6:3 (KJV)

This speaks of the glorified Son of God-Son of man, after the resurrection.

Quote:
Also, Emannuel is name given to Christ before his birth. Have they changed the meaning of that word?



No. However, Jesus was the Name the Anointing fell upon, Hence His entire Name, Jesus Christ or, the Christ; Emmanuel, God with us.

Here: "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me" Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)

And of Jesus the man it is spoken:

"Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy loving kindness and thy truth from the great congregation." Psalms 40:7-10 (KJV)

And then it happened in actuality:

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:21 (KJV)

We must remember Jesus, the human, the Son of God did not exist accept in the plan or Mind of God before His birth. Up until then the three that bore record in Heaven was the Father, The Word and the Holy Ghost. The Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us to demonstrate the 'way of the cross' as the way of our new life in Him is to be walked out and then go to the cross to make the same power and love He lived by to be our enablement, to do what He did to accomplish what He accomplished and more if God's will. He, the Word, then returned to Heaven in a glorified human body as the fulfilled Son of God-Son of man.[/b].

Hope that helps.

 2008/8/5 15:29





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