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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : So Which is it, Was Adam purposed to Fall or was he purposed for the incarnation of Christ Jesus?

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 Re:

Quote:

Josef_Urban wrote:
Quote:
The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father.



Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was born as the incarnate Son of God, being God in the flesh?



Absolutely! Now my question to you: Are you born again?

 2008/8/5 10:24









 Re:Jesus achieved Divinity?

Ormley wrote:

"The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father."


Josef-Servant wrote;
"Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was born as the incarnate Son of God, being God in the flesh?'



It is evident in your statement above, that you believe that Jesus of Nazareth,[b]Achieved[/b] divinity by obedience to the Father.


Could you explain where you derived this insight?

 2008/8/5 10:59









 Re:

Quote:

Brothertom wrote:
Ormley wrote:

"The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father."


Josef-Servant wrote;
"Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was born as the incarnate Son of God, being God in the flesh?'



It is evident in your statement above, that you believe that Jesus of Nazareth,[b]Achieved[/b] divinity by obedience to the Father.


Could you explain where you derived this insight?



The scriptures that state, He learned obedience . . ." Obedience to what if not the Father? What was it He had to learn if not the Character of His Father much like Adam was purposed to do? In our life we know that a child, being born with the nature of its father is given to learn his character; son-ship. "Unto us a child is born, a son given". Why was that necessary if Jesus was already divine in His humanity? It was His Humanity that required the test to become what God purposed, i.e., Humankind transfigured to Glory.

It was this that was purposed for Adam.

May I also ask this question of you: Are you born again?

 2008/8/5 11:13
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Ormly said:

Quote:
Adam failed, he did not achieve God's purpose, i.e., Throne-ship in the Godhead.



"May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears..." (Acts 17:19-20)


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/5 11:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Ormly said:

Quote:
Adam failed, he did not achieve God's purpose, i.e., Throne-ship in the Godhead.



"May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears..." (Acts 17:19-20)



Wherein lies the strangeness? Oh, I don't deny it is new, though it shouldn't be. I have violated nothing from scripture unless you have a biased perspective of it taught you by the many years of the teaching of a single dimensioned gospel.

Ask some questions of Paul. How come he places great emphasis on 'son-ship, joint-heir-ship and throne-ship upon his listeners who are not just 'saved' folk? He speaks to the "saints AND to the faithful in Christ.(Eph.1:1,kjv) He makes distinctions most don't ever make when taking God's work to themselves, presumptuously believing they have it all when they repeat the sinners prayer. No my brother, there is more that led Paul to declare, "Eye hasn't seen nor ear heard, nor has entered into the heart of man, what God has for those that love Him". Do you love God? Why of course you do. Every 'Christian' will admit that while never considering what it really means.
Kindly read all I have posted and not cherry pick to find fault. It isn't a strange doctrine I speak. It is however, a more complete one that should offend no one who knows the scriptures to search out for themselves. It should bring joy to the one who longs for more completeness in Christ while still living in this world of testing.

 2008/8/5 11:36









 Re:

Quote:


Ormley wrote:

"The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father."


Josef-Servant wrote;
"Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was born as the incarnate Son of God, being God in the flesh?'



It is evident in your statement above, that you believe that Jesus of Nazareth,[b]Achieved[/b] divinity by obedience to the Father.


Could you explain where you derived this insight?


Ormley replied,
"The scriptures that state, He learned obedience . . ." Obedience to what if not the Father? What was it He had to learn if not the Character of His Father much like Adam was purposed to do? In our life we know that a child, being born with the nature of its father is given to learn his character; son-ship. "Unto us a child is born, a son given". Why was that necessary if Jesus was already divine in His humanity? It was His Humanity that required the test to become what God purposed, i.e., Humankind transfigured to Glory.

It was this that was purposed for Adam.

May I also ask this question of you: Are you born again?


My response to you, Ormly:



Ormly then replied:
"Why was that necessary if Jesus was already Divine, in His humanity. ?...........

In simple strait talk, you do not believe that Jesus was divine, or God in the Flesh. You have stated this clearly. You somewhere believed that Jesus ACHIEVED DIVINITY through obedience to his father. When you are confronted, you will not respond according to the Word, or directly, but divert argument to your "straw men", or accusations of infidelity against your confronters. You have no substance to your claims, and will not reveal the source of these ideas.[they are NOT Christian ideas, Ormly.]




Well Ormly, You see, that Jesus was the Son of Man, as well as the Son of God.


"All things were made by him, and without him , was not anything made that was made."


"He was in the World, [b]and the World was made by him, and the World knew him not!"[/b]


John chapter one.


Who created all things, Ormly?.."who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL with God, and made himself of no reputation, and took upon himself the FORM of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."
...Philippians, Ch:2


These doctrines of "attainment" by our Lord Jesus are prevalent in Mormonism, Transcendental Hinduism [ to become an ascended master, as Jesus attained..], Buddhism, and Taoism....They all teach that the path to Nirvana, was and is the same that Jesus walked, all with a twist or two.


You have quickly exposed yourself as one who has believed at least a form of these damnable heresies. This is not good, Ormly. Not that we don't invite seekers of God, or are rejecting you because of your unchristian doctrines, but because they might destroy you in the end, if you do not change, or repent.



To know that the Eternal One became a man, and as God, laid his life down, to redeem, is a fundamental and foundational reality for the Believer. You, as per your posts, do not believe this, in spite of your intricate designs to avoid admitting it, or to divert the issues. Your questions , and the name of your posts, are spurious in nature..in that both reflect the substance of your heresy, and, I believe, were purposed to create doubt. God is a good God, Ormly, and desires that NONE should perish. This is why Jesus came; not because Adam was created, but to rescue him, and his Hell bound race. In doing so, He soundly defeated Death, and his cohort, Satan!



Jesus left His Throne as God almighty, to become a man. He ascended back to that Throne, as God almighty, having endured the sacrifice, and the suffering of death, as He tasted death for all mankind. It had to be so. This is the root of all mercies, and God's Love, Ormly.



Please stop diverting this issue. Jesus is, was, and will be God Almighty. He is the Great "I AM." He has never attained Divinity. He is Divinity, the alpha and omega. You may not believe this, but this is the Heart of Faith you are disputing, and I believe that it is impossible to know God, and obtain Salvation without this faith I speak of.


I hope you see this, for your sake. My respects, Tom

 2008/8/5 12:46









 Re:

"I hope you see this, for your sake. My respects, Tom"

I asked if you were born again. If you answered perhaps I just missed in all you stated above. Think you can give a simple yes or no?

 2008/8/5 12:51
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father.



This statement alone should cause everyone in this discussion to question any further points you have to make.

Christ did not achieve divinity, He was always divine, always God.

Fully God, and fully man.

I do hope you understand that this belief it seems you are putting forth is close to, if not heretical as you are seemingly denying the deity of Christ in His pre-incarnate state.

You are treading on dangerous grounds brother, please be careful.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/8/5 13:01Profile









 Re:


RE: Tom,

Though I believe most all you say, you nevertheless say enough that would confuse anyone trying to connect the dots.

God can't die, ergo, God wasn't on the cross. Don't call that comment heretical. It's not arguable. Consider you can't make distinctions running with your present theology while dismissing anything that might cause you to think.

So quit, RIGHT NOW, with the accusations. I am a Christian and I have no axe to grind. If you want to discuss using the scriptures, that's find. You might begin by citing relevant ones instead of those you have posted, that aren't. . . All quoting the writers speaking of Jesus AFTER the fact of the cross and glorification. Again, make better distinctions.

Keep in mind, this is all about God's original intention for Adam.

Why is it Tom, that Jesus needed to obey His Father? Answer that, please.

 2008/8/5 13:01









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father.



This statement alone should cause everyone in this discussion to question any further points you have to make.

Christ did not achieve divinity, He was always divine, always God.

Fully God, and fully man.

I do hope you understand that this belief it seems you are putting forth is close to, if not heretical as you are seemingly denying the deity of Christ in His pre-incarnate state.

You are treading on dangerous grounds brother, please be careful.



May I suggest taking a dep breath and re-read my posts.

Don't cherry pick and make it say what is not being said.

 2008/8/5 13:04





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