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Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Me too delboy!


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Mark Nash

 2004/8/24 2:23Profile
Jason
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Joined: 2003/3/15
Posts: 138
Tallahassee, FL, USA

 Re:

For what it's worth, hairEw (airo, as you have chosen to transliterate it) is generally a negative word. It is used in outside literature in the sense of kidnap (Herodotus) or to seize as the spoils of war, etc. It can be used in a positive sense, but it's pretty clearly negative here for those branches as far as I can see it.

 2004/8/25 21:30Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
For what it's worth, hairEw (airo, as you have chosen to transliterate it) is generally a negative word. It is used in outside literature in the sense of kidnap (Herodotus) or to seize as the spoils of war, etc. It can be used in a positive sense, but it's pretty clearly negative here for those branches as far as I can see it.


HI Jason
aireO is a different word and means to choose. It is used in Php 1:22, 2Th 2:13 and Heb 11:25.

αἱρέω
haireō; a prim. vb.; to take, choose: - choose (1), choosing (1), chosen (1).


airO (the John 15:2)is
αἴρω
airō
Thayer Definition:
1) to raise up, elevate, lift up
1a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones
1b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
1c) to draw up: a fish
2) to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
3a) to move from its place
3b) to take off or away what is attached to anything
3c) to remove
3d) to carry off, carry away with one
3e) to appropriate what is taken
3f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
3g) to take and apply to any use
3h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
3i) cause to cease

Any who want to pursue the finer points of Greek should give liddell and Scott a visit.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/8/28 3:59Profile
Jason
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Joined: 2003/3/15
Posts: 138
Tallahassee, FL, USA

 Re:

Ahh, my bad; I skimmed the first couple posts and really didn't do any checking. You're right. I just jumped to the more familiar word in the classical world (typical scribal error).

For Koine, the Bauer Danker Arndt Gingrich (BDAG3) lexicon published by UChicago Press is the best. It will refer you back to the big Liddell-Scott for classical usages, but it's the authoritative Koine lexicon.

 2004/9/2 20:22Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I happened across Isaiah 27 today in my reading and saw a couple of thing which made a connection with John 15.

[b] In that day: A vineyard of wine, sing ye unto it. I Jehovah am its keeper; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day. [/b] (Isa 27:2-3 ASV) This is very similar in feeling to the opening phrases of John 15 which included ‘My Father is the husbandman’. The image is of the care and provision which we see in Isaiah 27.

However this beautiful image has its other side. [b] For the fortified city is solitary, a habitation deserted and forsaken, like the wilderness: there shall the calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof. When the boughs thereof are [u]withered[/u], they shall be broken off; the women shall come, and [u]set them on fire[/u]; for it is a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have compassion upon them, and he that formed them will show them no favor. And it shall come to pass in that day, that Jehovah will beat off his fruit from the flood of the River unto the brook of Egypt; and [u]ye shall be gathered one by one[/u], O ye children of Israel.[/b] (Isa 27:10-12 ASV) This is the warning of coming judgement which again is very similar in feeling to the later verses in John 15.

John 15 says [b] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is [u]withered[/u]; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are [u]burned[/u]. [/b] (Joh 15:6 KJV) The burning of the withered branch is an exact echo of this Isaiah passage. The words of Isaiah seem to be consistent with my understanding that this warning is aimed at the nation of Israel as the ‘natural branches’.

There is however a possible reference to the remnant. The phrase ‘beat off his fruit’. The picture is of the beating of a vine to dislodge the last grapes, [u]one by one[/u]; Paul was such a one, and there have been and will be many others.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/2 7:37Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Hi Ron, do you think John 15:1-4 and John 15:5 onwards are different parables?


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Mark Nash

 2004/12/2 9:48Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Ron, do you think John 15:1-4 and John 15:5 onwards are different parables?


No. but I think this seemless passage from the first Israel to the second is more frequeent than many realise in the NT.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/2 9:58Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

How do you think the following verses correspond to each other?

It seems as though the second effect is a judgment leading to being burned, but what does the first effect lead to (i.e. taketh away - airo)?

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. (John 15:2 KJV)

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (John 15:6 KJV)


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Mark Nash

 2004/12/3 3:05Profile





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