Santa Clara, CA
What nonsense is this you don't get these things mentioned above because your immersed in the Word.
Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.
Find no contradiction here?
| 2008/8/13 17:12||Profile|
| Re: Zenozac: Tongues help by faith, but fruit and holiness matter.|
zenozac....My post was not about the bad character of those that I mentioned, My post was the fact that gifts are but a vehicle to allow you to bear Godly Character. There are no gifts in Heaven, but our fruit will follow us into Heaven, where it is exposed whether we love God, or not.
The people I mentioned simply act, or acted, upon the perversion of exalting a gift, primarily tongues, as an endorsement of being babtised in the Holy Spirit, while their lives deny him in their display of greed and overt selfishness. It was, and is a case in point.
Speaking in tongues is utterly useless, if the fruit of your life is carnal...for all to see. It proves nothing, except possibly in the annals of your own mind and those of your peers. 1st cor: 13.....sounding brass, clanging symbols..."it profits me nothing."
Those that do, enter into error, for their is pride in that reasoning...that the gift endorses you. It does not. "you shall know them by their FRUIT!", not tongues , or gifts of any sort. That is the point of 1Cor"13". Character and fruit matter.
I listed these icons and leaders to accentuate the bizzare nature of some who are received as leaders, and proudly speak in tongues, are pentecostal mostly, and yet have such an ungodly and greedy lifestyle.
For the reason of your inability to see that, I have my original post below:
Paul has a point though. Because of TBN, and many high profile charismatic ministries over the last 30 years, the Pentecostals have been lumped together with them. The world in general holds these icons somewhere between a laughing stock and clownish caricatures of what the christian IS.
Kathryn Kuhlman , Jimmy Swaggart's debacle, "I have sinned!", and then more, and then "NO" to any correction, Tammy Faye's 50,000 dollar dog house, and those eyelashes, with 8 pounds of makeup and a Dolly Parton wig heaped high, while thieving millions....TBN's bizarre tuxedo's and candlelight hedonism bilking millions and millions, Benny Hinn, Copeland, Hagee, Creflo, Schuller, Hagin, Oral's plea for millions or else....he would die...and the neo-prophetic carnival of Bentley, the apostolic Alliance, Bob Jones, Paul Cain...and let us not forget the motivational humanists of the emerging church, and Olsteen, and 29 other mega-churches who embrace the Pagan prosperity gospel....but hold tongues up as the PROOF, that they are the ones, who hold the mighty Baptism in His holy Spirit. These are NATIONAL figures....ICONS of American Hedonism to most, masquerading in religious robes. Maybe this was the point that Paul West makes.
It is pointless to proceed. I could go on, and you know it. Of course, there are Pentecostals that are genuine , cross bearing and loving , fruit bearing disciples. I hope so, for I speak in tongues, in my private prayer life, every day of my life. The issue , I believe , is one of Godly character, and holiness....not the gifts.The gifts are given, SO that, we would bear Holy and Godly Fruit, not PROVE that we have attained a deeper experience with our Creator.
We are not to preach gifts, but Christ Crucified. It is not a badge of attainment. It is proof of nothing except you were graced with something you did not earn, that could help you attain intimacy and a holy relationship with your Maker. This is what Christ Jesus is pursuing in his Bride, and is attracted to; a Garment of white...of purity...of Holiness and Love emanating to Himself, His family, and a dying and dark world.
Tongues may help you on this journey; it may not....but the impression I get with many who focus upon it primarily, is that Pride has deceived them. "You shall know them by their fruits." Not Gifts, and especially a private, personal one like tongues, given to assist your Worship life. It is definitely not an endorsement of the Holy Spirit, proven by the Love in our lives alone.
| 2008/8/13 18:40|
But the fruit of immersion in the Word are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.
In Gal 5:22-23 it does not say the above it says the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT are.
When Paul mentioned Word of God I took it to mean the bible. The bible is only words on paper they are powerless without the backing of the Holy Spirit.
Without the Spirit revealing God and his Son through the bible you will not understand them.
For Paul to say
A Christian immersed in the Word, however, gets blessed discernment, sobriety, wisdom, knowledge, light, patience, humility, charity; God begins to teach him that tongues are insignificant
This is wrong because the same SPIRIT that brings life and revelation to the Bible also causes believers to talk in tounges.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Why would the same Spirit that reveals the Word teach that Tounges are insignificant. When he is the one that also causes us to talk in tounges.
Is he saying maybe the Spirit is selective and will only reveal truth through the bible when we have hidden sin and will not operate in the tounge talking part.
I hope my point is clear know it's the Spirit behind everything that causes fruit, that brings revelation, that causes conviction of sin, that brings repentance, that causes us to love, that causes us to be patient, that allows to heal the sick, to cast out devils, to speak in tounges, that causes us to be Holy, sober, strong, disciplined, wise the list could go on and on.
But the Spirit will not teach tounges are insignificant in any circumstance. That would be a different spirit messing with your thoughts.
Colin Robert Murray
| 2008/8/13 19:07||Profile|
why o why o why, must we continue to devour one another?
and for what?
to be "right"?
this very thread is a stench unto the Lord, and should be locked.
It is no longer a "discussion", but a religiostic mud slinging fest that brings no Glory to God.
If I was a "seeker", not knowing the Riches of Christ, and this was the first thing I read, in an internet quest to....investigate the church, and those who follow Jesus........I don;t even want to complete that sentence.
Lord have mercy, please.
| 2008/8/13 20:15|
Col.3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Eph.5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
The Lord has helped us immensely by making it so that even a quick comparison of these text (you would need to read the entire context) reveals to us that letting the Word of Christ dwell within you richly has the identical effect as being filled with the Spirit.
In discussing these and any issues it is not the authority of a man that wins his hearer. It is only the careful scrutiny of truth by navigating through the Word of God, unbiased and willing to be wrong on any point. I say willing to be wrong, because he may very well be and will need the submission that is an evidence of being filled with the Spirit (see the above text in its entirety) It is coming to the table together to examine what He has said to us...us, eternal kinsmen that love each other and lay our lives down for each other.
Let me speak to a brother like this, for I know he loves God's Word and does not trust himself. He knows he can be deceived and must in the fear of God rightly divide the Word of truth. He dare not intrepret scripture with his experiences. Any other conversation is worthless and uninviting.
| 2008/8/14 0:37||Profile|
Just as the drinking of pure water cleanses the body of impurities - so does the drinking of the Word purify us spiritually - but only insomuch that we have not partaken of so much of the world that our pores are clogged by it's pollutants. As we are cleansed, the beauty of His Son begins to shine through and we are led deeper and deeper into the meaning of all He has put before us. His Word unlocks the mysteries that have been contained throughout the ages. He is contained within the Word - but not constrained.
| 2008/8/14 1:20||Profile|
My post was the fact that gifts are but a vehicle to allow you to bear Godly Character. There are no gifts in Heaven, but our fruit will follow us into Heaven, where it is exposed whether we love God, or not.
Amen, brother Tom! While I believe that the "biblical" and "official" evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues (I'm not sure if you do or not), I agree completely that the gifts are in the Church for a good reason: not to exalt "gifted" or "anointed" men, but to exalt Christ, edify the saints, and lead sinners to having a revelation of God and bring them to repentance. In other words, the gifts are not an end in themselves, but a [i]means[/i] to an end, the end being the glory of God, the edification of saints, and the salvation of sinners. And among the saints they MUST bear fruit and increase the godliness of believers, or else they are vain. Speaking in tongues is but a clanging symbol if we have not love and walk in sanctification by faith.
Also, Paul West has said some very good things in this thread too, and I personally and heartily agree with most of what he said. I think some of the *disagreements* are a matter of semantics. Brothers Tom and Paul are NOT discrediting the gifts, they are putting them in proper perspective. There's been so much abuse in this area it is needful that we put these things in the right perspective...
but in doing so, let's keep it biblical -The Apostle Paul DID preach the gifts in 1 Cor. 12. "Now concerning spiritual gifts brethren I would not have you to be ignorant". We need to preach Christ and Him crucified, and not only crucified, but also glorified, and the baptism with the Holy Ghost is the proof of His glorification. There's a great need among the remnant of God in these last days to receive and administer the baptism and gifts of the HOLY Spirit among the Body of Christ to prepare the last days bride for the soon coming Bridegroom. The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus, and all the saints need to walk in the spirit of prophecy as the last great apostasy and deception falls upon the earth like a theif in the night, or else without knowing their Master's voice they will fall and be destroyed (spiritually). These are perilous times and we need not only inward graces, but demonstrative power to tear down the strongholds of Satan and we need the real power of the Holy Spirit to withstand the wiles of the devil.
| 2008/8/14 3:03|
| Re: Zion shield and Josef-Urban..tongues!|
Wow! I was very impressed with the clarity and depth of both of your posts. It cuts through to the heart, and intent of God himself, and that is to "Bring many son's into perfection!"
"Earnestly desire the greater gifts, and especially that you may prophecy!" God gave us gifts, both for our individual edification.."he that speaks in tongues edifies himself", and for the body, which we are joined to as individual members in particular...."but he who prophesies edifies the BODY!"
In itself, without devotion to the Cross of Jesus, any gift may be squandered. Baalim was a real prophet, with a real gift. The angel of God appeared to him, and gave him a commission personally, and in spite of himself, He was used to destroy Balak and all of Canaan.[Through his declaration of the Ascendancy of Israel by God's endorsement.} In the process though, his Fleshly lust caused him to damage the Tribes, through his counsel....IE, sending seductresses to fornicate with Israel, so God would have to judge their sin.
Baalim is in Hades, I believe, as a cursed one himself, even now. The point I make, is that the gift ensures nothing; the holy fruit does. This is the consistency of Heaven. Love, joy, Peace, and there is yet Eternal Blood , and a mercy seat. The gifts, such as tongues, assist us, and the Church, to be worshippers, in Spirit and in truth.
I thought today of the men I consider to be Fathers, or Mentors to me, even in their death, their testimony proceeds, in their writing. Wesley, Whitefield, Bunyan, McCheyne, Tozer, T. Austin Sparks, Watchman Nee, and Ravenhill and Art Katz too. I have named but a few, and probably left out some important brothers; real Apostolic men. do you remember them for their graces to speak in tongues?...or do you honor them for their holy Heart they conveyed in revealing Jesus of Nazareth for who He is.....the awesome One!
I am not sure if one of these men ever spoke with other tongues. They shook the World though, with their ministries.
As far as My belief as to whether speaking in tongues is the sign of the Baptism? Biblically, it sure seems so....BUT....am I going to attempt to manufacture this, in new converts? God is the giver of gifts....[ Ephesians 4 ] when we demand that people line up with our perceptions of "Spirit Baptism", we get into trouble. Let God do that. Let them seek God, and let God be the Giver.
Azusa street was built on this foundation, and sometimes people waited for YEARS...but when that happened..trust me, it was real.
I had a Finney type conversion[for lack of another description]. Waves of Presence flowed over me, and through me, like ocean waters....for days. I led many people to Christ immediately. Yet, I do not remember when I began to speak in tongues. Today, it is a very, very intimate thing with me...between me, and my God. This has been much more intimate than any relations I have ever had , say with my wife. I cannot pray like this in the presence of anyone. It is sacred to me. My spirit is bared, and I am naked, only clothed by Mercies from Jesus throne.
One of the great benefits I do possess from this gift, is that I can pray without ceasing...and all of you with the gift of tongues know what I mean. I pray silently, but I pray, wherever or whatever I do. I do not know how people get along without it....but obviously, as the Generals of faith I mentioned above, many have, and do quite well at it.
We must look at it this way, that you brothers have written, lest we bring division in our ignorance. I, as many here, have had the priveledge to see many believe on Jesus, and repent, that never heard there was a Jesus before.
At the point of their acknowledgement of faith, I explained that I would lay hands on them, and the Holy Spirit would enter them, and dwell with them. This was done matter of fact-ly, and I did....right then and there. If you can receive it, I could see, as they passed from death, into life. Their faces became radiant, and they lifted their heads and hands to Heaven. some manifested joy as described in Acts 2. They were genuinally saved, and were babtized later. I do not recall any bursting into tongues, but that was none of my business. I have seen that happen too, in other settings.
Just my input. I hope to be conformed into His living image, and surely have a long way to go. God loves me, and that's my biggest gift.
| 2008/8/14 11:26|
Sorry Brothertom, perhaps I should have said I am for the most part in agreement with your post. Instead of how I said it.
maybe the confusion here is over what I am posting about.
The original question is whether or not tongues are still for today. NOT about their importance or place in our spiritual lives. It has morphed into many other discussions which I was not intending to to part in.
But you spent the majority of your post pointing out "pentacostal leaders" who have gone wrong. You were defending Paul's rant as I asked him why is he so angry at "pentacostals".
This is a part of your quote which again seems to be taking a shot at pentacostals;
"Speaking in tongues is utterly useless, if the fruit of your life is carnal...for all to see. It proves nothing, except possibly in the annals of your own mind and those of your peers. 1st cor: 13.....sounding brass, clanging symbols..."it profits me nothing."
I agree with the statement entirely except for the useless shot you seem to be taking at me. Do you know me and my peers? And did i say anything of the nature that tongues proves something? BUT,
You single out speaking in tongues and there is a lot more to it than just that small part you chose to quote. Which of the other gifts of the spirit are useful if the fruit of your life is carnal?? Let me be clear speaking in tongues is but one gift of the same spirit. And pointing out people who have allowed the devil to take over and pervert their lives is something that is useless! Unless you are trying to imply, in any way, that one of GODS gifts is a cause of their bad behavior, which is outragous!
I am certain we could put together a list of "non pentacostals" who have fallen. But what would be the point/
| 2008/8/14 15:18||Profile|
In 1Co 13:10, what is the word 'perfect' referring to? We see in the next two verses that nothing is perfect untill it is complete, that would indicate that the 'perfect' thing has to be complete first. Then it says that faith, hope and charity would abide after the 'perfect' comes. The 'perfect' here can not be referring to Christ because Christ is already complete and after Christ comes we would not need faith nor hope.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Could it be that the 'perfect' which the apostle Paul was talking about in 1Cor 13:10 refers rather to our 'glorified being' which he also mentioned in 1Cor 15:50-53:
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
| 2008/8/14 22:14||Profile|