I haven't had time to be in here, but I wanted to acknowledge your post and thank you for your compliment. God bless you.
| 2008/8/10 21:00||Profile|
I always wondered why there is no mention of Jesus speaking in tongues. The Mind of Christ is One with the Father and all good things come down from the Father of Light. Jesus manifested all the other gifts and He is the only true Gifted One. All the Gifts that the Spirit distributes as He pleases are in Jesus. If Christ is in us and we have the Mind of Christ and we are to renew our mind to the Mind of Christ, where are we to be renewed, I don't see speaking in an unknown tongue as having anything to do with being conformed to the image of Christ.
Here is an example of Jesus groaning in the Spirit.
John 11:32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled. 34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? 38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Look at v33...Jesus groaned in the spirit.......
It looks very clear to me that there are examples of Jesus praying in a language that nobody could understand.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered [RSV: with sighs too deep for words; NIV: with groans that words cannot express].
Tounges are only the starting point of a prayer life that can lead to deep groanings where you fight and wrestle in prayer with words that cannot be uttered.
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.
Praying earnestly until he was sweating drops of blood. What type of prayer is this?
Matt 26:37-38 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and sore troubled. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me.
He began to be sorrowful do you think he sat crying like a kid. What was going on in his spirit that caused him to be exceedling sorrowful even to the point of death.
Come on people do you think that Jesus was waiting quietly to know what he was going to say do please try and picture Jesus. Groaning and weeping and battling with what he had to face please try and imagine the fight he had on his hands at this point. Here we see Jesus going to levels in prayer that caused him to sweat great drops of blood to the point of death.
There are very clear verses in the bible where Jesus prayed sighs too deep for words; with groans that words cannot express he did not sit and wait quietly ans some would have us do.
I ask you what image of Christ do you have?
| 2008/8/12 7:31||Profile|
There are many good posts in this thread, many of which I agree with about 95%.
I agree that a tree is known by its fruit, and not by the sound of the wind in the branches. If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love, it profits NOTHING. A man who has all the fruit of the Spirit but not tongues is filled with the Spirit (though not baptized), but a man who speaks in tongues but doesn't show forth the fruit is deceived into a counterfeit and doesn't have the Holy Spirit abiding within.
I believe tongues are the biblical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost because that is the common manifestation in the book of Acts -where the Holy Spirit fell, believers spoke in tongues and magnified God.
I have yet to see a man [i]prove[/i] that he is baptized in the Holy Ghost that has never spoken in tongues. There's no way to prove it. He may have an anointing, be a powerful preacher, etc. (just as John the Baptist) but not be baptized in the Spirit.
Tongues were reserved in the plan of God to be a peculiar New Covenant manifestation of receiving the new measure of the Spirit. They were not made manifest in Old Testament times -none of the prophets or saints of old spoke in tongues. But they did manifest ALL the other gifts of the Spirit (except tongues and interpretation):
- Miracles (Moses in Egypt and in the wilderness, Samsom with his strength, Elijah calling down fire, etc.)
- Healing (Abraham prayed and healed a man, Israel in the wilderness in supernatural health, etc., Elisha cured Naaman the leper)
- Faith (Just read Hebrews 11)
- Word of Knowledge (Elisha knew what the enemy King whispered in his bed chamber)
- Word of Wisdom (Solomon had this gift)
- Prophecy (all the prophets prophesied)
- Discerning of spirits (Elisha prayed for his servant's eyes to be opened and he saw the chariots of Israel in the spirit)
BUT THERE ARE NONE WHO SPOKE IN TONGUES.
Being mighty in prayer can't be the evidence of the baptism, otherwise Elijah had it.
Preaching in extraordinary unction and anointing can't be the evidence, otherwise John Baptist had it.
Prophesying can't be the evidence, otherwise even King Saul had the baptism.
Miracles can't be the evidence, otherwise many O.T. saints had it.
But Jesus said it was reserved for His Church, to be a special enduement of the Spirit upon His people so they could be witnesses, and He reserved the speaking in tongues to be the evidence of this new endowment of the Spirit. Tongues are promised to all who believe:
[i]Mar 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.[/i]
A man doesn't need the "gift of tongues" to speak in tongues initially after receiving the baptism, and a man doesn't need "gifts of healing" to lay hands on the sick and pray the prayer of faith and see them healed, and a man doesn't need "discerning of spirits" in order to cast out demons in Christ's name. These signs are promised to ALL who BELIEVE.
A man is hard-pressed to prove he has the baptism without the New Covenant biblical evidence. He can have all the other gifts of the Spirit... just like Elisha... and not be baptized in the Spirit.
So my dear brethren who love the Lord, who have the anointing of the Holy One abiding within, who have seen evidence of the gifts of the Spirit in your life, but have never spoken in tongues or been consciously clothed with power from on high, I would encouarge you to pray for the PROMISE of the SPIRIT by FAITH with the biblical evidence so you can KNOW you have received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. You don't need to doubt whether you have it any more than you need to doubt whether Christ has saved you: when it happens you'll KNOW it. And don't just pray for the tongues. Pray for the baptism. When you get a new pair of shoes the tongues come with them. So it is with the baptism, I believe. You don't need to work it up, the Living Waters will flow from your belly and manifest in peculiar utterances of the Spirit when you get the baptism. You don't have to force it any more than you have to force a river to gush down a stream bed, when the river flows, the Living Water will gush forth.
[i]Joh 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)[/i]
Also of interest:
| 2008/8/12 14:35|
When you get a new pair of shoes the tongues come with them.
Excellent "article" - thank you!
| 2008/8/12 16:26||Profile|
"The devil is very happy with millions of Pentecostals who speak in other tongues yet can't control their own mother tongues, and another reason I believe Satan leaves tongues alone is because so very few people actually have the real thing. I'd say the vast majority of people who speak in tongues are actually deceived into thinking they're Spirit-Baptized."
Really Paul? Did you mean to say millions? For all i know you may be right, but how is it you have come to that conclusion? I am a pentacostal and know quite a few others. Some fit your description, some do not. I would say that in my experience that the description of people who think they are chritians, but live a decidedly unchristian life covers all the denominations. (perhaps some more than others). But that is another discussion entirely. You seem to have quite the axe to grind with "pentacostals" in particular. Or does it just seem that way because this topic is on a "pentacostal issue"?
originally I was going to ask you whether you believe that the gift of tongues is for today or not. I believe that was the original question. And then I guess my question for those who say no, "is which other scriptures no longer apply to todays world?
| 2008/8/12 17:14||Profile|
| Re: Zenozac: Tongues help by faith....but..|
Paul has a point though. Because of TBN, and many high profile charismatic ministries over the last 30 years, the Pentecostals have been lumped together with them. The world in general holds these icons somewhere between a laughing stock and clownish caricatures of what the christian IS.
Kathryn Kuhlman , Jimmy Swaggart's debacle, "I have sinned!", and then more, and then "NO" to any correction, Tammy Faye's 50,000 dollar dog house, and those eyelashes, with 8 pounds of makeup and a Dolly Parton wig heaped high, while thieving millions....TBN's bizarre tuxedo's and candlelight hedonism bilking millions and millions, Benny Hinn, Copeland, Hagee, Creflo, Schuller, Hagin, Oral's plea for millions or else....he would die...and the neo-prophetic carnival of Bentley, the apostolic Alliance, Bob Jones, Paul Cain...and let us not forget the motivational humanists of the emerging church, and Olsteen, and 29 other mega-churches who embrace the Pagan prosperity gospel....but hold tongues up as the PROOF, that they are the ones, who hold the mighty Baptism in His holy Spirit. These are NATIONAL figures....ICONS of American Hedonism to most, masquerading in religious robes. Maybe this was the point that Paul West makes.
It is pointless to proceed. I could go on, and you know it. Of course, there are Pentecostals that are genuine , cross bearing and loving , fruit bearing disciples. I hope so, for I speak in tongues, in my private prayer life, every day of my life. The issue , I believe , is one of Godly character, and holiness....not the gifts. The gifts are given, SO that, we would bear Holy and Godly Fruit, not PROVE that we have attained a deeper experience with our Creator.
We are not to preach gifts, but Christ Crucified. It is not a badge of attainment. It is proof of nothing except you were graced with something you did not earn, that could help you attain intimacy and a holy relationship with your Maker. This is what Christ Jesus is pursuing in his Bride, and is attracted to; a Garment of white...of purity...of Holiness and Love emanating to Himself, His family, and a dying and dark world.
Tongues may help you on this journey; it may not....but the impression I get with many who focus upon it primarily, is that Pride has deceived them. "You shall know them by their fruits." Not Gifts, and especially a private, personal one like tongues, given to assist your Worship life. It is definitely not an endorsement of the Holy Spirit, proven by the Love in our lives alone.
| 2008/8/12 23:46|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Evidence|
Evidence - I do not know that this is the criteria or the expectation, to frame it that way is to put forth an anticipation that may or may not come.
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Regardless if this is supposed to be at 'inception' or relegated to the realm of 'gifts' it is still the negation of this very idea. The rhetorical question is answered in it's stating; No. No, they do not all speak with tongues.
The argument is from silence just as much as it is from mention. Putting this idea to new believers or even old for that matter is very much the reason we have the soulish-manipulative imaginings, turned out as audible gibberish that we do. To be coached or taught something that is supposed to come without either is to teach a falsehood and foolishness.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
[b]1Co 14:21-25[/b] -
In this passage the apostle pursues the argument, and reasons from other topics; as,
I. Tongues, as the Corinthians used them, were rather a token of judgment from God than mercy to any people (1Co_14:21): [i]In the law[/i] (that is, the Old Testament) [i]it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak to this people; and yet for all this they will not hear me, saith the Lord[/i], Isa_28:11. Compare Deu_28:46, Deu_28:49. To both these passages, it is thought, the apostle refers. Both are delivered by way of threatening, and one is supposed to interpret the other. The meaning in this view is that it is an evidence that a people are abandoned of God when he gives them up to this sort of instruction, to the discipline of those who speak in another language. And surely the apostle's discourse implies, You should not be fond of the tokens of divine displeasure. God can have no gracious regards to those who are left merely to this sort of instruction, and taught in language which they cannot understand. They can never be benefited by such teaching as this; and, when they are left to it, it is a sad sign that God gives them over as past cure. And should Christians covet to be in such a state, or to bring the churches into it? Yet thus did the Corinthian preachers in effect, who would always deliver their inspirations in an unknown tongue.
This excerpt is not a statement whatsoever, just a piece for consideration, all of the sections in 1 Cor 12 through 14 and all the others mentioning tongues ought to be read through from his commentary. And not just his, but others as well. This is not a simple matter and I recognize the various arguments - But at the same time the abuse and ... stupidity that is so prevalent in our day ... Coming from this construct and repeating it again redundantly here would be wearing. It is not one incident that would turn me sour but many. I have no issues whatsoever where it may be indeed true, but unfortunately that is the very area where the evidence is lacking.
| 2008/8/13 0:04||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
Not to be in any way flippant, but it occurred to me ... Why might not martyrdom be the 'evidence' of being baptized in the Spirit? Seems to be quite a weight of evidence towards this ...
Just to get us thinking.
Incidents or precedents?
| 2008/8/13 0:21||Profile|
Well, now, I don't think the devil is half concerned with tongues as he is with the Word of God. A more accurate statement, I think, would be to say the devil will do everything in his power to keep you from saturating yourself in the Word of God. Millions pray and speak in tongues each week, believing they are Spirit-filled, yet these same live wretched, defeated lives outside the church building all week long.
Paul I ask how many more read there bible every week and don't know the Author. How much of them have wrecthed defeated lives.
A Christian immersed in the Word, however, gets blessed discernment, sobriety, wisdom,knowledge, light, patience, humility, charity; God begins to teach him that tongues are insignificant
What nonsense is this you don't get these things mentioned above because your immersed in the Word.
Does it not say in the Word
1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.
The things you mention are gifts and fruits of the Spirit. They are not because you read your bible they are there because of the Spirit of God that lives in you.
The devil is very happy with millions of Pentecostals who speak in other tongues yet can't control their own mother tongues, and another reason I believe Satan leaves tongues alone is because so very few people actually have the real thing. I'd say the vast majority of people who speak in tongues are actually deceived into thinking they're Spirit-Baptized. They're certainly not baptized with the same genuine baptism Moody and Finney and Andrew Murray and Wesley and Whitefield and Ravenhill and other men of God had and spoke about. Instead, they've been taught to bank off a one-time experience of emotion (usually precipitated by dynamic music and drums and guitar and loud mantras repeated over and over) creating an atmosphere of heightened soul power and then use this experience as a circuit breaker whenever doubt creeps in that they just might [i]not[/i] be truly Spirit-filled.
Again you can and look at the same about churches that have bibles but are dull, formal, blah, flat, humdrum, stale, tiresome, worn out, repetitious and dead. Being led by The Very Reverended I AM Jolly. Having no knowledge of God having never known Jesus.
Look at what the bible says about Elijah.
Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.
Please notice it did not say Elijah a man who was immersed in the Torah.
No it said Elijah a man with the same passions as us prayed.
So you think that the Devil is not scared of a man who prays fervently in the Spirit or if I could put it this way a man who talks in tongues, groans, weeps and travails. I would say you are wrong and this is why the Devil sows so much division around this issue.
Jesus said "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations"
Prayer is very important and the Devil and the Devil knows it.
That why there is so much division over the of talking in tounges he wants to hold people back.
Tounges are a weapon because the force behind tounges is the Holy Spirit and for this reason the Devil does not want you to use it.
Seeing prayer as a part of Gods war arsenal can be difficult for some believers to grasp.
Tradition teaches us that our prayers only touch God and that in order to be holy we should be quiet and still. However, the Bible declares that effective fervent prayer releases Gods power (James 5:16).
Colin Robert Murray
| 2008/8/13 11:55||Profile|
Thanks Colin, for your post. You are able to say more clearly what I was trying to say.
I would still like to hear from Paul West about the question of his anger towards "pentacostals".
I would also be interested to hear from those who say tongues is not for today. Please reveal to me which other scriptures and what other things Jesus said are not for today.
Brothertom, I am in complete agreement with the list of names you present as people who have done much harm to the gospel. But we do not follow men, but Jesus Christ alone. How does their bad behavior affect our christianity? I am not quoting them. I am quoting Jesus.
Jesus said it in Mark 16:15-18
| 2008/8/13 14:48||Profile|