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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


It was an earthly language being spoken by these people.


There is nothing in Scripture that says it must be an earthly tongue. It can be, but it may not be. As it it is, there are thousands of languages/dialects in the world, so, even if one spoke in another earthly tongue, such could seldom be known for sure. Futhermore, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that he who speaks in an uninterpreted tongue speaks as a Barbarian i.e. one who is unintelligible (gibberish).


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Jimmy H

 2008/8/4 18:59Profile
logan_trky
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Joined: 2006/9/14
Posts: 29


 Re:

Quote:
It was an earthly language being spoken by these people.


There is nothing in Scripture that says it must be an earthly tongue. It can be, but it may not be. As it it is, there are thousands of languages/dialects in the world, so, even if one spoke in another earthly tongue, such could seldom be known for sure. Futhermore, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 that he who speaks in an uninterpreted tongue speaks as a Barbarian i.e. one who is unintelligible (gibberish).



I apologize for just entering into this convo randomly again, but I don't have the time to read through all of this post, and address some of the subjects that have been brought up.

This, however is an interesting point. I have heard pentecostal scholars on both sides of the fence on this one. One of the main scriptures one of the sides uses is the scripture Paul uses, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels...." They claim this would suggest that when you receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, you will either speak in an unknown earthly tongue, or possibly a heavenly tongue. I, however, have no opinion on this, because I simply do not know.

 2008/8/6 23:47Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote:

wisevirgin wrote:

Tongues and the Holy Spirit

Acts 2 contains the first occurrence of tongues in the context of a supernatural activity related to the coming of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2: 4 reads: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

Later, the passage describes the reaction of the multitude in Jerusalem:

"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? . . . Cretans and Arabs— we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God" (Acts 2: 8,11).

The word, glossa, is used again, but there is another word used here that is significant in the study of biblical tongues. Examine Acts 2: 6: "And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered, because they were each one hearing them speak in his own language." The word translated "language" is dialecto. In English it is "dialect."

This word is also used in Acts 2: 8: "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?"

The point is that the word glossa means exactly the same thing it means in other places in Scripture: It is a reference to an earthly language.

The Book of Acts clearly explains what happened at Pentecost. A diverse multitude of people had assembled at Jerusalem for the feast when suddenly a group of believers stood up and began "speaking in tongues." Scripture explains this phenomenon by indicating that they were speaking in the languages of the people who were there. Everyone heard his own language.

The gift of speaking in tongues evidenced at Pentecost was the act of speaking in languages that had not been learned or studied. The Spirit of God supernaturally empowered the disciples to speak in earthly languages that they did not know. The foreigners in Jerusalem who heard the disciples heard their own languages being spoken. It was not babble. It was not a heavenly language. It was an earthly language being spoken by these people.

Biblical Tongues and Modern Tongues

Before pursuing the validity of modern day "speaking in tongues," it must be measured in light of the Bible. From studying these passages in the Scripture, it becomes obvious that tongues was the ability to speak an earthly language that had not been learned or studied. That was the biblical framework when tongues were spoken. Is the modern day phenomenon biblical as some are claiming?

The modern day phenomenon does not meet the basic criteria of what is laid down in the Bible. Today it usually consists of people babbling. They claim, "This is it. This is the biblical phenomenon described in the Book of Acts. This is what happens when the Holy Spirit comes into your life."

No. Wait a minute. That is not what happened in the Bible. The proof is not in the experience, but in sifting the experience through the Scripture.




Please consider these scriptures as well.

1Cor 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

A part of my testimony is this.

This happened one night in 1989. I did not go to church I had no interest in church. I was a violent man who did all types of wrong and but I was fed up being that way. I knew that only God alone could change me. As I lay on my bed all I asked was this "God I am fed up being this way change me".

As I lay there a wind started to leave me from my stomach and after it left another wind blew on me and into me. It blew right into my stomach and I could feel it all over my body. Once it had finished I sat up and spoke in a language that I had never spoke before. I did not understand the language it did not sound like a earthly language and wasn't a earthly language. At the time I thought to myself what was that and I knew the answer it was "tounges"

From that point on I changed, I was a different person.

I can see in the bible very clearly the gift that God has given me. It's the Holy Spirit with the evidence of talking in tounges.

Colin Robert Murray


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Colin Murray

 2008/8/7 6:57Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
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 Re:

I appreciate this discussion of tongues among fellow believers without the usual strife and contention that usually takes place when this subject is brought up.

The devil hates tongues, and he will do everything in his power to keep believers from praying in tongues.

Praying in tongues is of great benefit to the believer as well as the Body of Christ. Praying in the Spirit edifies the believer, and through the gift of tongues and interpretation, the Church is edified.

When we pray in tongues, it is our spirit man that is praying as moved on by the Holy Spirit.

There is a great value in praying in tongues in matters in which we do not know how or what to pray. The Spirit makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

This is why the devil hates tongues and he will fight it. We don't have to pray in tongues to be saved, and sometimes tongues are abused and counterfeited, but that doesn't take away from the fact that hundreds of thousands of people all over the world from the day of Pentecost to present have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and speak in tongues. Now whether this is a foreign language or a tongue of angels, I don't know. I personally believe that it could be either one.

1st. Corinthians 14 answers a lot of questions on this subject.

In His Love,
Mike


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Mike

 2008/8/7 11:23Profile
Thommy2
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Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60
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 Re:

The devil hates tongues, and he will do everything in his power to keep believers from praying in tongues.
- AbideinHim

Where does the Bible specifically say this?
Now I am a charasmatic (like C.J. Mahaney..not Benny Hinn) I just think that if we are going to keep tongues a biblical issue...we need to stick with the Bible. Thanks AbideinHim


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Thom

 2008/8/7 17:01Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
The devil hates tongues, and he will do everything in his power to keep believers from praying in tongues.



Well, now, I don't think the devil is half concerned with tongues as he is with the Word of God. A more accurate statement, I think, would be to say the devil will do everything in his power to keep you from saturating yourself in the Word of God. Millions pray and speak in tongues each week, believing they are Spirit-filled, yet these same live wretched, defeated lives outside the church building all week long. A Christian immersed in the Word, however, gets blessed discernment, sobriety, wisdom, knowledge, light, patience, humility, charity; God begins to teach him that tongues are insignificant if secret sin is not being dealt with, and that the true fire only falls from Heaven when the whole sacrifice is cut up and laid on the altar: that is, the secret quest for man's approval, the love of money, position, power, influence, the lust of the eyes, pride of life, self-sufficiency, malice, covetousness, unbelief, unforgiveness, etc. All the hidden secrets.

The devil is very happy with millions of Pentecostals who speak in other tongues yet can't control their own mother tongues, and another reason I believe Satan leaves tongues alone is because so very few people actually have the real thing. I'd say the vast majority of people who speak in tongues are actually deceived into thinking they're Spirit-Baptized. They're certainly not baptized with the same genuine baptism Moody and Finney and Andrew Murray and Wesley and Whitefield and Ravenhill and other men of God had and spoke about. Instead, they've been taught to bank off a one-time experience of emotion (usually precipitated by dynamic music and drums and guitar and loud mantras repeated over and over) creating an atmosphere of heightened soul power and then use this experience as a circuit breaker whenever doubt creeps in that they just might [i]not[/i] be truly Spirit-filled.

Kind of like the sinner's prayer, only Mach II.


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/7 22:30Profile
mamaluk
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Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

Quote:
Well, now, I don't think the devil is half concerned with tongues as he is with the Word of God. A more accurate statement, I think, would be to say the devil will do everything in his power to keep you from saturating yourself in the Word of God. Millions pray and speak in tongues each week, believing they are Spirit-filled, yet these same live wretched, defeated lives outside the church building all week long. A Christian immersed in the Word, however, gets blessed discernment, sobriety, wisdom, knowledge, light, patience, humility, charity; God begins to teach him that tongues are irrelevant if secret sin is not being dealt with, and that the true fire only falls from Heaven when the whole sacrifice is cut up and laid on the altar: that is, the secret quest of man's approval, the love of money, position, power, influence, the lust of the eyes, pride of life, self-sufficiency, malice, covetousness, unbelief, unforgiveness, etc. All the hidden secrets.

The devil is very happy with millions of Pentecostals who speak in other tongues yet can't control their own mother tongues, and another reason I believe Satan leaves tongues alone is because so very few people actually have the real thing. I'd say the vast majority of people who speak in tongues are actually deceived into thinking they're Spirit-Baptized. They're certainly not baptized with the same genuine baptism Moody and Finney and Andrew Murray and Wesley and Whitefield and Ravenhill and other men of God had and spoke about. Instead, they've been taught to bank off a one-time experience of emotion (usually precipitated by dynamic music and drums and guitar and loud mantras repeated over and over) creating an atmosphere of heightened soul power and then use this experience as a circuit breaker whenever doubt creeps in that they just might not be truly Spirit-filled.




Needed words of admonition indeed, brother Paul.

There was an incident where the tongue-speakers were found [i]cursing[/i] God without even realizing it. While that "tongue" was a language unbeknownst to the speakers, however revealed by someone who happened to understand it in that congregation. All the while Satan was having a ball spreading this sort of tongues as wild fire.

Beware!

mamaluk





 2008/8/7 23:25Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Good post Paul, Thank you.

I always wondered why there is no mention of Jesus speaking in tongues. The Mind of Christ is One with the Father and all good things come down from the Father of Light. Jesus manifested all the other gifts and He is the only true Gifted One. All the Gifts that the Spirit distributes as He pleases are in Jesus. If Christ is in us and we have the Mind of Christ and we are to renew our mind to the Mind of Christ, where are we to be renewed, I don't see speaking in an unknown tongue as having anything to do with being conformed to the image of Christ. If the Holy Spirit did not speak to our understanding how would we learn anything that has to do with renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ?

The same for Paul, he said, "I would rather speak five words with understanding than 10,000 in an unknown tongue". Tongues have always been divisive, as Paul had to address it in Corinth, as it was being used for unprofitable understanding of the Word of God. Satan uses tongues to this day and loves it when he can get the renewing of our minds to the Mind of Christ by the Word of God, to the point of speaking in a heavenly language that prophets no one in The Word of God and The Gifted One Himself giving gifts by the Holy Spirit for upbuilding of the Body of Christ.

I have many Christian brothers and sisters who speak in an unknown tongue, in our prayers together. It seems that they use the unknown tongues to give them time to think about what they are going to pray. I think it would profit them more if they were just silent before God and ask the Holy Spirit to pray for things we don't know of what or how to pray and Him give us revelation truth in God's will. If we ask anything in the Name of Jesus Christ, He said, He would answer. The Holy Spirit will not give revelation in and unknown tongue, lest how would we understand the revelation, so why ask in and unknown tongue, ask in faith, knowing that revelation will come if we listen carefully.
He won't give us a stone for bread.

I think it would be better if we prayed in our own understanding and receive approval or correction from the Holy Spirit with understanding that we may be profited for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/8/8 15:28Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
Kind of like the sinner's prayer, only Mach II.



HAHAHAHA!

That was a great statement.

Speaking in tongues at the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is an evidence [u]for[/u] [b]OTHER PEOPLE[/b]!

It is very simple. [b]If the Omnipotent Living Spirit of God is in you, how could you not know it?[/b]

People are assuring THEMSELVES that they are baptised in the Holy Ghost because they hear THEMSELVES speak in tongues. Such foolishness.

Great post PaulWest.


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Jordan

 2008/8/8 20:26Profile









 Re:HOLINESS AND TONGUES.

Quote:
The devil hates tongues, and he will do everything in his power to keep believers from praying in tongues.



The devil does not hate tongue's, the Devil hates fruit. When we walk in the Spirit, with our cross, we bear the fruit of God, which is the Love of God in Christ Jesus. The fruit of God in the Holy Spirit is the path to Maturity, and is the true mark of the true Christian. "They shall know you are My disciples by your Love one for another"...and, "You shall know them by their fruits...Can a fig tree bear thorns?"


In modern Pentecost, the gift of tongues became the badge of Spirituality by the prideful, and the ticket to acceptance into the "Apostolic Gospel" for many. It became most bizarre, and as Paul West implied, odd. It seems that a gleeful ignorance overrode sensibility as this gift, often mimicked, and in itself divorced from God's Heart, was the endorsement of God Himself; and those who possessed it , real or contrived, surely wanted everyone to know it.


A certain and infamous tattooed evangelist of late intermingled most of his prayers with the "short burst", or "mini blast" of the "Mach II" canonization. Of course, this is not all...following behind is Katherine Kuhlman, Kenneth Hagin, the Pentecostal Healing Evangelists, Tammy Faye and Jim Bakker, CBN, TBN, and Kenny Copeland, Benny Hinn and a plethora of other aberrations of the meek and holy Heart of Jesus.


I believe it was all because of this one deception, that a gift validates you as authentic in God, and the prideful attitudes of Superiority attached to the possessor. This became the mark of God for many, and the only important thing. It was the SEAL, and all thereafter was but the blessing. It became the passport to brotherhood, and the foundation of the Priest Class. Godly Character and holy fruit sat in the back of the bus...way back.[Often they were thrown under the bus...]


So, in this sense, the devil has used tongues to divide and conquer the church. It, by the way was the tool he used to infiltrate the holy walls of doctrine that stood for 1900 years. He did this in one generation, as multitudes of Catholics entered into the true reformed and protestant fellowship via the Charismatic Ecumenical Renewal,[C.E,R.] in the 1960s.


And enter they did. The premise was the same mentioned above. They must have the Holy Spirit! They speak in tongues, [b]as evidence[/b] of Jesus Baptism in the Holy Spirit! Bible Doctrine of repentence and faith was trumped by experience....TONGUES! Papal worshippers of Mary flocked in, rosaries in hand, and they were and are received. The Word of God, and Holy Character were downplayed, and the Charismatic era was upon us. I think of the abomination that makes desolate. It is not the Holy Gift; this is real...but the "Has God Said?" part that grieves me. Satan twisted a gift, as he does quite often, from under the confines of The Word of God, and Oh, the destruction he has brought to us!


We were almost made desolate by it, as a body. We became desperate, and were buried. Now we see better. Tongues are a gift, but Holiness is the only thing that will put you next to the Lamb; the crucified and risen One.

 2008/8/9 4:48





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