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HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re: Tongues

Hi Pritybetta,

Here's a link for an awesome article on speaking in tongues.

[url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article07]The Truth About Speaking in Tongues by Zac Poonen[/url]

Jordan


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Jordan

 2008/7/27 19:42Profile
Zionshield
Member



Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135
Ohio

 Re:

An interesting explanation for the three (perhaps 4)occurences of tongues accompanying the baptism of the Holy Spirit is for the unity of the church.

"2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." the Jews

"8:16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (the commentator believes they occurred here as well, though unrecorded)the Samaritans

"10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." the Gentiles

"19:4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." followers of John

Eph. 4:3 "endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Reading this chapter and thinking of Jesus' prayer in John 17:21, "that they all may be one"...perhaps it deserves consideration.


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Randy Lambert

 2008/7/27 21:06Profile
Zionshield
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Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135
Ohio

 Re:

I Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (a theme of unity keeps popping up doesn't it?)

Eph.4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit and we all who are in Christ have had this baptism.

I Cor.12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The answer to this rhetorical question is no...not all speak in tongues.

I appreciate the mentioning of the baptism in Acts as the baptising into the body of Christ. Is this not what the whole of Scripture necessitates? We are not commanded to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, but rather to be filled with the Holy Spirit...which as you may know is a continuous thing (be ye being filled). We have received the seal of the promised Holy Spirit and become partakers of the divine nature. As such we cannot have anymore than we have already. The stipulation that the command in Eph.5:18 makes is that we must be filled many times in life willingly yielding to Him. Romans 8 and Gal. 5 concur with this...that we must choose that which pleases the Spirit so that He can pruduce His fruit. Our beloved Lord makes this apparent also in John 15...we must abide in Him for Him to produce His fruit.

I do believe there can be a crisis in a followers life where the old man is severely crippled so that he lives a fuller life in Christ (I would use Jacob as an example) Nonetheless we must still die daily.

I am looking forward to that time in my life.


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Randy Lambert

 2008/7/27 21:34Profile
logan_trky
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Joined: 2006/9/14
Posts: 29


 Re:

Quote:
I Cor.12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The answer to this rhetorical question is no...not all speak in tongues.



This verse is concerning the "gift of tongues". These gifts were given to edify the church. Even though someone is baptized with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, they do not necessarily have the "gift of tongues" which is used in the church to give a message from the Lord. Giving a message in the church, and your personal prayer language are very different.

Quote:
We are not commanded to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, but rather to be filled with the Holy Spirit...which as you may know is a continuous thing (be ye being filled)..



The apostles were definately commanded to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Notice in Acts 1 that the Lord commanded the Apostles to stay in Jerusalem to wait for the Promise. They were not to preach or teach until they received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
As such we cannot have anymore than we have already.




This statement is a little tricky. There is always more that the Lord can give to us. As far as a newly saved person, you have many things that you can receive from the Lord. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is one of many. Paul asked in Acts 19:2, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

 2008/7/28 23:05Profile
Zionshield
Member



Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135
Ohio

 Re:

hi Logan,

That is a good observation about a possible difference in the gift and the display shown by the ones 1st baptized in the Spirit. We can agree that the tongues in Acts 2 were known languages of course. In fact, it fulfilled the the following quoted in I Cor. 14 vs 21

"21In the Law it is written:
"Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,"[f] says the Lord."

It appears to me that the event in Acts 2 and the gift have the same purpose considering the following verses:

22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[g] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[h]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

The following verse would appear to contadict your statement that tongues is for the edification of the church.

"4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church."


I don't see any evidence concerning a personal prayer language though. 14:22 states the purpose for tongues is as a sign to unbelievers. I imagine someone is thinking about 13:1

" 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." Paul also said in the same context that even if he were to "surrender my body to the flames". We know that he did not give his body to be burned. It all has to be seen together in the same light- as hypothetical language. Well...its family time so I must get back to this later. I was looking at 14:2 next. I will answer the other two points you made, Logan, tomorrow if the Lord lets me.

Thanks for "sparring" with me. Its good for me, I hope its good for you. Godspeed and good night.


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Randy Lambert

 2008/7/30 21:24Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3547
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 Re:

In 1 Corinthinas 12, the apostle Paul is instructing the Corinthian believers on the gifts of the Spirit. All of the gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of the Body of Christ. This includes the gift of tongues. Paul does say that this gift of tongues should not be exercised in the Church unless there is someone who has the gift of the interpretation of tongues. Paul did not discourage the personal praying in tongues between the believer and God. He said that he himself prayed in tongues, and that when we pray in tongues to God we are edifying ourselves. This is also confimed by the scripture in Jude 1:20. ("Building up yoursleves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost")


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Mike

 2008/7/31 0:30Profile
pritybetta
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Joined: 2008/7/26
Posts: 2
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 Re: Tongues

First off, the tongues were not an unknown language, they were known languages but unknown to the one speaking them. I also believe that when the Bible speaks of and unknown tongue it is speaking of a language that is unknown to those listening, not unknown to any man. The gift of tongues from the Lord is what I believe to be known tongues but it is unknown to the person it is given to, he did not learn the language beforehand. I do not believe the Lord grants that gift anymore.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Here we see that the multitude that heard them speaking was hearing them speak in their own tongue and not some unknown tongue that no one knows except the Lord himself.

Here is another passage in Acts that states that someone spoke in tongues:

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Here it does not say that the ones of the circumcision spoke in tongues but only the Gentiles who also was given the gift of the Holy Ghost. Those of the circumcision knew the Gentiles were given the Holy Ghost because they understood that they were magnifying God, thus letting us know that the tongues was their own language.

The Third time tongues is mentioned in Acts nothing was written to say wether or not it was an unknown tongue. However, we know that the two times before it is not an unknown tongue but rather unknown to the ones speaking it.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

In 1Cor. 12 Paul is telling us what gifts there are that is given. One of those gifts is tongues, but not the 'unknown' tongue, he says "divers kinds of tongues", meaning different languages. He also explains that it is given to 'some' not all.

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Where most people think tongues is a language that is not known by any man is in 1Co 13:1 where Paul says he speaks with the tongues of men and of angels. The word 'angels' is also translated as 'messengers', this would indicate he speaks with many languages as messengers do. Meaning he did not speak an unknown language but rather many known languages and was able to do so because the Lord has granted him that gift, he did not learn them.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Prophecies here is talking about someone professing to what the Lord has taught. When someone teaches the Bible, they are professing. When these verses were written, the Bible was not availible for full professing of the Word, so when someone did prophecy they were doing it in part there for it failed because they could not prove it. Also, knowledge(knowledge of the Word) was given by the Lord piece by piece and directly from the Lord. The Bible was not available to them in order to find out so the Lord had to give them the knowledge. Once the Bible was written, the Lord stopped giving the gift, there for it vanished away. Likewise, the gift of tongues ceased when the Bible was written.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

In 1Co 13:10, what is the word 'perfect' referring to? We see in the next two verses that nothing is perfect untill it is complete, that would indicate that the 'perfect' thing has to be complete first. Then it says that faith, hope and charity would abide after the 'perfect' comes. The 'perfect' here can not be referring to Christ because Christ is already complete and after Christ comes we would not need faith nor hope.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

If the 'perfect' was referring to Christ then why would we need faith which is the evidence of things not seen when we would have seen Christ? Or why would we need hope if we have seen Christ if hope that is seen is not hope? Now the Word of God is perfect is it not? Therefore, the 'perfect' in 1Co 13:10 has to be referring to the Word of God, the Bible.

As for tongues today, most would ask 'Then where does it come from if not from the Lord?', I would say it is either faked or it is from the Devil. I say this because many do fake things to make themselves seem more acceptable to others. And that the Bible teaches us that the son of perdition would use signs and wonders to try and deceive people from believing he is God.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
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Pritybetta

 2008/8/1 13:47Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3547
Louisiana

 Re:

"The gift of tongues from the Lord is what I believe to be known tongues but it is unknown to the person it is given to, he did not learn the language beforehand. I do not believe the Lord grants that gift anymore." (pritybeta)


Could you please show me in the Word scripture that backs up your belief that the Lord does not grant the gift of tongues any more?

"As for tongues today, most would ask 'Then where does it come from if not from the Lord?', I would say it is either faked or it is from the Devil. I say this because many do fake things to make themselves seem more acceptable to others. And that the Bible teaches us that the son of perdition would use signs and wonders to try and deceive people from believing he is God." (pritybetta)

This is a very dangerous assumption to make that a gift from God as stated in 1 Cor. 12 which has never been taken away from the church is either faked or is of the devil. Yes there are counterfeit tongues. The devil counterfeits that which is true, but all of gits of the Spirit are for today, and are for the church. The Holy Spirit has also given us discernment and we have the Word so that we will know what is from God and what is of the enemy.


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Mike

 2008/8/1 19:18Profile
logan_trky
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Joined: 2006/9/14
Posts: 29


 Re:

Quote:
As for tongues today, most would ask 'Then where does it come from if not from the Lord?', I would say it is either faked or it is from the Devil. I say this because many do fake things to make themselves seem more acceptable to others. And that the Bible teaches us that the son of perdition would use signs and wonders to try and deceive people from believing he is God." (pritybetta)



That is also boarderline blasphemy.

 2008/8/2 11:23Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

prettybetta wrote:

Quote:

"""
If the 'perfect' was referring to Christ then why would we need faith which is the evidence of things not seen when we would have seen Christ? Or why would we need hope if we have seen Christ if hope that is seen is not hope? Now the Word of God is perfect is it not? Therefore, the 'perfect' in 1Co 13:10 has to be referring to the Word of God, the Bible."""


I agree with everything you say except "that which is prefect comes". We know that there is only One that is perfect. We know that anything we have, even in the gifts of the Spirit are in part, because the Spirit has to work through our soul-mind, which is being made perfect by the Word of God Himself and the teaching of the Holy Spirit our Comforter and Teacher. "That which is Perfect is come", is the Spirit of Christ that we are rebirthed with, for our spirit is now the Spirit of Christ, which scripture makes clear, "if we don't have the Spirit of Christ in us we are none of His". Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

((((Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.))))

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This is, "that which comes is perfect comes". For our spirit is perfect, made perfect by the Spirit of Christ that dwells in us. The soul-mind is being conformed to this image, and the body has been quickened to contain this mystery that Paul speaks of in all his writings, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

This formula is in: Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are totally saved in Spirit because it is the Spirit of Christ that dwells in us, which is perfect. We are being saved in our soul-mind by the renewing to the Mind of Christ. We will be saved in body on the day of resurrection of the Body of Christ, His Church.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

The teaching is pertaining to all that Paul taught the Corinthians; 2 Corinthians 1:17-24 When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay? But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

It was not Paul's yes or no, but the Lord's Yes.

"By faith we stand", which is in that which is Perfect, even Jesus Christ who is our Life, our Word, our Righteousness and our all in all.

So, the Word is Perfect which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory", The Spirit is perfect and He is that which has come in our rebirthed spirit, Satan out, Christ in, our new creature status, which is now, "son's of God", in our standing before God Perfect in Christ, being made perfect in our soul-minds by the Christ that is in us and the sealed perfection of the Holy Spirit that teaches us these truths, and will be made perfect, when we receive that completion of our salvation, our new heavenly bodies, just like His.

That which is Perfect is the Word, who is Christ and He is come in the body of this clay pot we live in, which contains this treasure, even that perfection, Jesus Christ. Amen

Is He come?

Praise God, Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Our standing before God, even as He is in this world, so are we.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

In Christ: Phillip




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Phillip

 2008/8/2 16:52Profile





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