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BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:
These were men who were never saved-"....but they were not of us.." -he means even while they were among us, they were not of us.



Thats my point. Many OSAS folks say that people do not fall away. They say they were never saved to begin with. Doesn't this verse support that?




Not necessarily, because the Bible teaches that those who do fall away "were ONCE enlightened.."

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were [b]once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost[/b], 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 [b]If they shall fall away, to renew them AGAIN unto repentance[/b]; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The Bible teaches that those who can fall away, were individuals who did at least once repent before, "..for it is impossible...to renew them AGAIN unto repentance.." It even says they were " ...made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost..". He can't be a unbeliever, or not saved if he has partaken of the Holy Ghost? For how could one partake of the Holy Ghost, and still be a unbeliever? . It says they were "..ONCE ENLIGHTENED"-a clear indication that they are not now enlightened.

One thing is clear though: An individual MUST continue in the Spirit, AND be continually RENEWED by the Spirit-if not, they become fruitless and fall away. For God have saved us by the washing of regeneration, and the RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST (Titus 3:5) You can only abide, as long as you are renewed.

If the water in our physical body is not renewed-we dehydrate, and the process of slow death occurs.


 2008/7/18 19:15Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Salvation is not something that we carry around in our pockets and then one day...oops, I lost it. It can't be [i]lost[/i]. That is the thrust of Jesus' preaching in John...He won't lose our salvation, but keep it if we remain in Him. The real question is never "can it be lost" but rather "can it be thrown away?" Who would ever want to, I know not, but there sure are enough warnings in scripture to make it sound like a reality. For the sake of emphasis, and I think the best response for anyone, Calvinist, Arminian, or "Independent" is what I posted earlier, quoting a Reformed pastor:

"You CAN if you DO!"


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/18 19:30Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
It even says they were " ...made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost..". He can't be a unbeliever, or not saved if he has partaken of the Holy Ghost? For how could one partake of the Holy Ghost, and still be a unbeliever?



All good questions. What about these verses Matthew 7:22-23

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

How can one prophesy, cast out demons, and do mighty works in Gods name, yet God declare He never knew them?

It seems to me that one can look and even act VERY Christian like...without being one at all.

Just rambling.


_________________
TJ

 2008/7/18 19:37Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:

BeYeDoers wrote:
The real question is never "can it be lost" but rather "can it be thrown away?" Who would ever want to, I know not, but there sure are enough warnings in scripture to make it sound like a reality.



I asked this earlier.

A statement from the article says a Christian CAN choose to be lost. My question is: WOULD a Christian ever choose to be lost?

I am talking about true Christians, not what we think or perceive to be so, but true Christians.

Quote:
"You CAN if you DO!"



Thats good.


_________________
TJ

 2008/7/18 19:45Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

BeYeDoers wrote:
Salvation is not something that we carry around in our pockets and then one day...oops, I lost it. It can't be [i]lost[/i]. That is the thrust of Jesus' preaching in John...He won't lose our salvation, but keep it if we remain in Him. The real question is never "can it be lost" but rather "can it be thrown away?" Who would ever want to, I know not, but there sure are enough warnings in scripture to make it sound like a reality. For the sake of emphasis, and I think the best response for anyone, Calvinist, Arminian, or "Independent" is what I posted earlier, quoting a Reformed pastor:

"You CAN if you DO!"



Salvation itself can't be lost.........but it can neglected. And anything you neglect, will eventually be lost.

Heb 2:11 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip......3 How shall we escape, if we [b]neglect so great salvation[/b]

1 Cor 15:1 Moreover, [b]brethren[/b], I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, [b]IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain[/b]

 2008/7/18 19:47Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Personally, the problem I have with the idea of a saved person becoming lost is not a scriptural one, but a logical one.

How can a new creation become un-born again? To play on Nicodemus' question, can a man enter a second time into God's womb and then un-conceive himself?


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/18 19:55Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:
It even says they were " ...made PARTAKERS of the Holy Ghost..". He can't be a unbeliever, or not saved if he has partaken of the Holy Ghost? For how could one partake of the Holy Ghost, and still be a unbeliever?



All good questions. What about these verses Matthew 7:22-23

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

How can one prophesy, cast out demons, and do mighty works in Gods name, yet God declare He never knew them?

It seems to me that one can look and even act VERY Christian like...without being one at all.

Just rambling.



Matt 24:24 For there shall arise [b]false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders[/b]; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect

One explanation: Christ never actually said they did what they claimed to do, Christ just makes mention of what it is exactly they will say to him. The fact that Christ never knew them, is clear that they never did this miracles "IN his name"

Also, though they claimed to do these miracles in "his name"-it could also be that they were, as Paul says: "..believing on, and preaching ANOTHER Jesus..."

 2008/7/18 19:57Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Christ never actually said they did what they claimed to do, Christ just makes mention of what it is exactly they will say to him.



Using this way of thinking I would think that in Hebrews 6:4 "...tasted of the heavenly gift...", we should recognize the difference in tasted, eaten, and digested. He only says tasted.

Verse 9 says “Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.” It seems that the author is clearly making a distinction between those who have merely ‘tasted’ and those who have tasted, eaten and digested the goodness of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. .


_________________
TJ

 2008/7/18 20:22Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Jesus said take heed so that you want be deceive. The bible gives many clear warnings to the believers in Christ about continuing in salvation until the day of redemption.

Salvation is seen in scripture as past, present, and future. Jesus also said about the many trials we would have to face and that he that endureth unto the end the same shall be saved.

We as believers who have trusted in the Lord for salvation are to give all diligence to make our calling and election sure.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Jesus also said that it would get so deceptive toward the end time that if it were possible even the elect would be deceived.

Some observations to consider:
Jesus gives us in His Word great encouragement to us who have trusted in Him for salvation that nobody would be able to pluck us out of His Hand nor the Father’s who gave us to Him. He gives us security that as long as we are trusting in Him and following Him, we can know He will keep us.

He also gives us great warning about deception, sin, lukewarm ness, losing our first love, and the need of maturing in our faith through trials and temptations. These warnings in the bible are not directed to the unsaved but to the saved; who have been given a fear of God that will cause them to follow out their salvation to completion.

The “once saved always saved doctrine” is not biblical and Jesus never said it because he always warned his sheep of dangers ahead and the danger of not finishing what was started.

Many unconverted people have taken this doctrine, because they prayed and felt that they were saved and can never be lost, and have deceived themselves because they have no fear of God in keeping his commandments and continuing out their salvation.

I believe the bible teaches us that in Jesus, abiding and trusting in Him, we have eternal security as long as we stay humbly following his commandments and warnings and never let anything take our faith and love away from Him. The bible says if we sin we have an advocate with the father, so as soon as we sin and fellowship is broken we humbly repent and ask for forgiveness so that our fellowship can be restored not allowing the devil to condemn us into turning to a hard heart in forsaking the Lord by continuing in sin.

As a brother stated, the truly saved, who are in covenant with the Lord, have been given a fear to keep his commandments and walk in His ways. The truly saved have truly repented with a sorrow for sin not to be repented of, and His fear is guiding them and they are full of Joy and Love for Him.

Adam was once in a saved relationship with the lord until he sinned and fell away but God showed Him how to come back to Him. We can say Lord, Lord or claim salvation all we won’t to, but if we live in sin Jesus cannot abide in our Life. Salvation is not a thing we have but a person who has us and we have Him.

Salvation is not something we have of ourselves neither is it something we can claim we have apart from Him. The Lord Jesus is our Salvation. He that hath the Son hath Life He that hath not the Son hath not Life. Eternal life is in knowing a person, the Lord Jesus, and knowing Him is salvation, and He keeps you from sin! He that is born of God sinneth not because the seed of God remains in Him and he cannot continue in sin because He is born of God.











 2008/7/18 21:11Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I think this passage pretty much clears it all up-

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also [b]called[/b], and those whom he called he also [b]justified[/b], and those whom he justified he also [b]glorified[/b].

Please note the highlighted words, and then tell me how a person who is justified(declared righteous) suddenly becomes unrighteous.

Does Christ become foul to His Father in Heaven, and the cross loses its power to save a soul?

Also, simply because a person may seemingly be walking away from the Lord, we cannot for sure say they are saved, or are not saved.

What if we had seen David with Bathsheba? Would we have said that he was unsaved?

Or how about when Jeremiah, Job, or Elijah sinned by murmuring against God's providence? After all, God demands perfect trust does He not?

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart" and if "Perfect love casts out fear", what of these men who feared?

You cannot write off Paul by putting Christ up against him, if your view doesn't mesh, then the Book is not in error.

Before going to far in this discussion, please read Hebrews 11, and take note of the names mentioned there. Tell me, when did we ever see repentance from Abraham for lying about Sarah?

When did Lot ever repent for living in a wicked town? Yet in another Epistle, he is called "just".

As for a NT example, when did Peter repent for stumbling Gentile believers when Paul confronted him? Also, if indeed one who is justified can be unjustified, why does Peter sat we are "kept by the power of God" and that we have "an inheritance incorruptible"?


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patrick heaviside

 2008/7/18 22:22Profile





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