SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Troubling Questions for y'all

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 Next Page )
PosterThread
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

The reason that homosexuality is described as against nature is answered in the following verse (v. 27). It is against nature because women were not created for sex with women, naturally (i.e. physically). Therefore, they have left the "natural use" of women. Therefore, homosexuality is against nature.

Regarding Romans 2:14-15: conscience and nature are two different things. A lost person can be convicted of sin in his conscience and have absolutely no desire in his will/nature to repent.

Regarding your response to Ephesians 2:3... it doesn't prove your point. Look at Galatians 2:15: "We who are by nature Jews". What does this mean? Obviously, it means they were born Jews. "We are are by nature children of wrath". What does this mean? Same Greek word. It obviously means we are born children of wrath.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/7/15 18:15Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

The bible says all came from Adam and all have sinned.

Brother Logic do you have a reason why you are so bent on trying to prove man is not born with a sin nature.

Does this help us or condemn us?

Does it make Christ sacrifice unnecessary for some in your opinion?

Because you believe man is not born with a sin nature, does this mean to you then that man should be able to live perfect without Christ being crucified?

 2008/7/15 18:57Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:

The reason that homosexuality is described as against nature is answered in the following verse (v. 27). It is against nature because women were not created for sex with women, naturally (i.e. physically). Therefore, they have left the "natural use" of women. Therefore, homosexuality is against nature.

How is sin against nature if we have a sin nature?

Quote:
Regarding Romans 2:14-15: conscience and nature are two different things. A lost person can be convicted of sin in his conscience and have absolutely no desire in his will/nature to repent.

Yes, they can, but does not prove "sin nature"

Quote:
Regarding your response to Ephesians 2:3... it doesn't prove your point. Look at Galatians 2:15: "We who are by nature Jews". What does this mean?

"We who are by nature(i.e. physically) Jews".
We are not physically children of wrath.


Quote:
"We are are by nature children of wrath". What does this mean? Same Greek word. It obviously means we are born children of wrath.

Obviously, it means that we were naturaly children of wrath [b]because[/b] we all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the mind.

 2008/7/15 18:59Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rbanks wrote:
The bible says all came from Adam and all have sinned.

Yes, but un-borns have not sinned, therefore the "[b]all[/b]" only implies those who have sinned.

Quote:
Brother Logic do you have a reason why you are so bent on trying to prove man is not born with a sin nature.

Because, calling ones nature by his fruit is rediculous.
Furthermore, it condemns the unborn.

We are born with a Human Nature just as a tree has a plant nature.
Our human nature is to grow and bear fruit just as a plant.
What ever fruit it bears, a tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.

The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into or what ever its root is of does change it's fruit.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

Quote:
Does it make Christ sacrifice unnecessary for some in your opinion?

only the un-born and infants under the age of accountability, for what do they need forgiven of?
They are not yet under the law to need the curse of the law to be taken away(2Corinth 5:21, Gal 3:13).
Their not captive slaves of the law to need setting free from(Luke 4:18, Galatians 5:1).

Quote:
Because you believe man is not born with a sin nature, does this mean to you then that man should be able to live perfect without Christ being crucified?

Yes, they should even without Christ being crucified, but mankind always chooses not to, that is why they are condemned.

Christ being crucified does not help one to live a holy life, it is the fact that they have eternal life(a relationship with Christ) which helps them to live a holy life.

 2008/7/15 19:19Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

26Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;

27and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.

(Young's Literal Translation)

That explains what I was trying to show you. It is against nature in the sense that, naturally, a man has sexual relations with a woman because they are sexual counterparts (physically); therefore, even nature itself shows that homosexuality is sin.

Also, Christ stated that bad fruit comes from a bad tree. Good fruit comes from a good tree. However, you are saying that both fruits come from a neutral tree.

If you don't mind, can I just back up for a second and assess the situation by asking a question. What did Christ accomplish on the cross and how does a person receive forgiveness and acceptance from God?

By the way, just to examine the fruit of this doctrine you proclaim. Some of the same people who often trumpet this false teaching often complain of the shallowness and entertainment in the church. I can tell you that you can look no further than your own theology for the shallowness of modern day Christianity. If mankind isn't really born sinful and is able to choose God or choose sin of his own power, then bring on the entertainment, sensual emotional songs, ridiculous manipulation, etc... because it basically becomes an all out race to tweak people just right to get them to respond. However, those who believe that it is by God's grace that man will ever choose God, we preach the gospel of Christ and trust in God's power alone for salvation.

If I am wrong, may my charge be that I tried to give God too much glory in salvation.

I really can't devote a lot more time to this discussion, as I have quite a few other situations that need my attention. However, I feel that anyone who reads through this thread will have enough information to judge by the Scriptures what is true and what is not, by God's grace. I would also encourage you to examine your own testimony. What were the events that occurred as you came to repentance and faith? What caused those events to occur? What caused you to first listen to the Bible? What caused you to first be interested in what it had to say? If it was because you felt conviction, what caused you to first feel conviction? I think if you keep tracing back the steps, you will find yourself struggling to keep God out of your salvation.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/7/15 19:21Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Brother Logic,

The scriptures do not teach that God condemns the unborn. It does not teach that God condemns us for having a sin nature.

Jesus died on the cross and shed his blood for our sin nature and our sins. God is just and the Justifier of all those who truly believe in Jesus.

The wrath of God is against our sins that we committed, not against our sin nature that Adam was responsible for.

 2008/7/15 19:39Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:


I wrote:
This is proven by the same, if we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our spirit now is the Spirit of Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You wrote:
It would help if you give specific Sripture that says the thing you do.
No ones spirit is the Holy Spirit.
They may be one with His Spirit, but one's spirit is never replaced by HIM.

"No ones spirit is the Holy Spirit".

I did not say the Holy Spirit is our spirit, I said the Holy Spirit is in our soul-mind, that is where He works. Where did Jesus say the Holy Spirit would work? In the Mind, which is where we have our cognitive understanding of knowing we are saved by the Christ that is in us. That the Holy Spirit is teaching us these things that Christ could not give us until The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.

1 John 5:1-4 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Assurance of the witness in ourselves:

1 John 5:9-12 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

We all are still dead to God without the Life of the Son in us.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who liveth in us?

1 John 5:12 He that hath (((in possession of, possessed by, conceived by, for uncircumcision use, added from Strongs;))) the Son hath (((same word))) life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

I said we have the Spirit of Christ in us, the spirit of Satan out, the Spirit of Christ in at our rebirth, that is our "born again", experience. "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Our spirit, before Christ in us:

James 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

The same lie and attention given to lusteth to be God. Satan envies God and lusts to be God and so do all in Adam who Satan wants to destroy because they are Gods', and Adam with Satan, who agreed by eating of the tree of good and evil.

No deception, just plain choosing evil over good and have the knowledge of it. Adam sinned, Eve was deceived. God has not dealt with mankind through Eve, but through the first Adam unto death and the second Adam unto life. Plain and simple, all who die are in Adam, all who live are in Christ Jesus by His Spirit that is now in the children of God, son's of God by the birthing of the only Begotten Son in us, born again in them. New Spirit, and new Mind and will be new Body.

In Christ: Phillip






_________________
Phillip

 2008/7/15 20:54Profile









 Re: GOSPEL TRUTH

Everything that comes out of Satan’s mouth is a lie. Even the truth becomes a lie when it comes from Satan’s mouth. As was displayed in his use of Scripture in Matthew 4 against our Lord, it’s just his way of getting you to think what he wants you to think. That’s his art! The art of mind seduction, mind manipulation, which ultimately leads to illusion and delusion of Who God is, what God has done and for whom He has done it. The world is filled with false gods and false christians. Genuine, sincere people deceived by lies about the true God, lies that have created a myriad of false gods, impersonators who, to the religious mind, the natural unsaved soul of man, sound and look like the true God but in reality are simply false gods that cannot save. False gospels are nothing but lies. They promote a concoction of erroneous doctrines and true. Satan uses Scripture like a Trojan Horse, to inject his lies into our minds. Distorted gospels contain twisted doctrines that have survived throughout the ages, having become ‘truth’ in the minds of the masses and bellowed from tens of thousands of pulpits across the world. To believe the Gospel is to believe in certain and distinct doctrines, doctrines which have only one Author: God Himself. Doctrines are simply teachings, and teachings are either true or they are not. If you have been taught incorrectly, been fed false teachings, then even before you state what you believe, it can be discerned that you could not possibly have the truth. The gospel you have cannot possibly be the Gospel of God fed to His people by the Spirit of Truth. If you have been taught correctly, if you have feasted on true and correct doctrines and been given the only faith that savingly believes in them, then it is a given that you have the true God. The issue of salvation is a battle between grace and works. All false gospels promote the works of man in some way. The most deceptive ones talk much of grace, but it is the satanic seed of works which pollutes the whole and makes it an unfit meal. The writer says in Ephesians 2 that ye are saved by grace…not by works (see Eph. 2). Recognize that any gospel brought before you which states that any part of salvation, getting saved, being saved or staying saved, is dependant upon a man and what he does or does not do, is a gospel which contains false doctrines, false teachings, and therefore cannot be God’s Gospel. False gospels contain teachings which do not emanate from God, they do not reveal the true God but only a false god. These tenets are basic. They are fundamental to a proper understanding of what Scripture talks about. The Bible warns about false doctrines and only ever encourages belief in the true. Page after page sees the vital importance, the emphasis, placed on believing the truth and not lies. Believe the Gospel and you will be saved; believe it not, evidenced not only by a rejection of the entire Gospel but also any part thereof, and you will perish. No one ever believed in the true God after being taught false doctrine, incorrect teachings, which have never and can never reveal the true God. If you are taught of the Father, you will believe His Gospel and no other. Therefore no one can rightly be said to be in a saved state, believing that there is only one Gospel which reveals the one true God, if they are under the illusion that they or anyone else is, or can be, saved whilst believing in anything which is not the whole and true Gospel of God. How can anyone believe, trust in, the true Jesus whilst embracing doctrine that does not reveal Him?



BELIEVE THE GOSPEL!! That is the cry of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. BELIEVE THE TRUTH ABOUT ME, He says. BELIEVE THE TRUE TEACHINGS THAT REVEAL ME AND THE FATHER, He says. DO NOT BELIEVE IN A LIE, DO NOT BELIEVE IN A MIXTURE OF LIES AND TRUTH, FOR THEY HAVE NEVER REVEALED ME BUT ONLY BLASPHEMOUS AND WORTHLESS COUNTERFEITS. BELIEVE THE GOSPEL; BELIEVE IN THE ONE AND ONLY GOSPEL; BELIEVE IN THE ONLY POWER OF GOD WHICH IS UNTO SALVATION: THE ONE AND ONLY GOSPEL OF ALMIGHTY GOD!

by MDB

"Cease my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge" (Prov. 19:27).

 2008/7/15 21:29
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""The wrath of God is against our sins that we committed, not against our sin nature that Adam was responsible for."""

rbanks, You are so right on. Christ died for the sin, Adam's sin, of the world. We or no one else will ever be guilty for the sin of similitude of Adam. Only our own sins are we guilty of now. In these sins of the flesh, and no one can say they have no sin, we have an advocate with the Father for these sins.

1 John 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Our Advocate is Christ and the Blood of the Cross.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The "s" should not be on the "sin(s) of the whole world, it is not in the original. The sin that plunged the whole world into sin was Adam's sin. That sin was completely taken care of at the Cross and we that are Christs', Now He is our advocate for the sins of the flesh that we commit and His Cross also took care of all our sins, if we confess and agree with God that sin is an offense to our Holy and loving Father. It is the Holy Spirits work to convict the whole world of these sins and give us repentance unto confession, where God is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness because of the elects sake and the Cross of Christ.

Romans 5:14-21 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/7/15 22:06Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rbanks wrote:
Brother Logic,

The scriptures do not teach that God condemns the unborn. It does not teach that God condemns us for having a sin nature.

I know, however, witn your doctrine of "imputed sin" God must condemn the unborn & the infants because they are guilty of Adam's sin. If they are guilty, then God must condemn them.

Quote:
Jesus died on the cross and shed his blood for our sin nature and our sins.

Where does it say that HE died for our "nature"?

Quote:
God is just and the Justifier of all those who truly believe in Jesus.

The unborn & the infants can not truly believe in Jesus, therefore, God must condemn them.

Quote:
The wrath of God is against our sins that we committed, not against our sin nature that Adam was responsible for.

What’s with "imputed sin" then?
Why would you call ones nature what kind of fruit he bears? You never call plants nature an apple nature just because it bears apples, why do you call human nature "sin nature" just because the unsaved bears fruit unto sin?

 2008/7/15 23:54Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy