| Re:" Outside the Camp"|
rbanks: The issue is really dominion, to me. We are all one, brothers and sisters equal in the dispensation of His Love. I had an opportunity to love this weekend, and took it, and washed the feet of the helpless. I experienced the vast pleasure of Jesus, as I deeded out my faith. It was sweet.
The things we do in "Churchianity"! It takes more than something that I have. It is of faith, before God alone. What we are expected to do, and then to brag to others, makes me shiver. The very next great thing you do, unto , and before the Lord Jesus....I challenge you to do it, and never, ever tell another soul. This is the secret walk, that He desires,,,,,a "...a SEGULLAH! A special treasure just for Him. This turns Him on!..Makes Him Happy!
Let us go on to know Him...Outside the Camp!
| 2008/7/1 1:04|
| Re: What is it about women's roles that holds such interest?|
Wow! It looks like this topic of gender roles is a hot one! Im trying to understand why it holds such interest. After all, it likely affects few SI'er personally. (It seems to me that there are much more serious matters threatening the church)
While the debate over Biblical interpretation will go on till eternity, there is one way in which we can gain insight, a way that God has provided and that we arent making as good use of as we could.
Remember those earlier days
) Therefore since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses
.. Heb. 10:32; 12:1
Yes, let history speak into the matter the works of God in the past among his people. Unfortunately postmodernity is mocking history. "After all, its all just peoples interpretation anyway." But that to me is dangerous thinking.
Recently our church book club read a fiction story about someone who made a mess of his missionary job in Africa. I suggested that they read TRUE stories about missionaries who did marvelous works. I have shelves of auto/biographies and would be happy to suggest one. .... Still no takers... I guess no one is eager for a mind-alteration. (Why is it that humans like to focus on bad stuff??)
And yes regarding women too: There are many astounding accounts. After reading these stories, your attention will not be drawn to what people did/did not, can/cannot do in church work, but to our great and awesome God what he can do through a humble and willing servants. Yes, God becomes the object of our marvel, and roles diminish in size.
These accounts also quickly silence and humble us all. Any women (men too!) who may desire leadership roles or "equal opportunity" will find their zeal quickly tempered, as they realize that they are mere grasshoppers standing beside these great saints of the past.
As I have offered on the other thread (but got no takers) if any one is interested in what God has been doing through women, I can offer a list of books which no doubt you can purchase very cheaply from Amazon.com. (books that the church libraries have been discarding, in favor of contemporary fiction.)
| 2008/7/1 6:58||Profile|
| Re: Great Sisters of our Faith!|
Diane: I believe you carry a precious word, and I am ministered to by your humility. I received prayer once, from a woman of God, who gave her entire life to Jesus in China,,remaining a celibate. She was beautiful in her 80s. She had long hair, in an old fashioned bun, and wore a floor length dress. I was in one of the ugliest times in my life..in sin, mostly backslidden, and desperate for God.
I went to a pentecostal church with my wife, and she was speaking. I was too cold to listen, and understand. After the Preaching, she sought me out. She found me, on my way out. She stopped me, and as I looked upon her, she seemed to glow. She silently prayed, almost hiding. To this day, it is the only time that I can recall, that I experienced the virtue of Christ, just like the woman who touched the Hem of his garment. Something came out of her gentle touch, that disarmed me, and somehow brought a measure of healing to me. It was truly mystical, and deeply prophetic.
I long for the body of Christ to begin to receive our sisters as equals, and equal ministers. There is neither male, nor female, in Christ. Can our sisters pray for us, in a direct way? of course. Can our sisters share revelation, and the understanding they have received from it? Of course. On and on and on...until Isaiah 61 is consumed! Everything that Jesus said about Himself in Isaiah 61 is the ministry, and is neither male, nor female. We had better receive the female ministers, as much as the male. They are equal in all things, except Government. Doctrinal teaching is included in this. Authority over the church, and over men, is included in this. Everything else, other than government, in Christ, is included in this. Hallelujah
Put up some of your books here, or I'm sure anywhere. I have read many, and realize that much of the world would be yet lost, if it were not for the ministry of women. I am for you Diane, and for my sisters entering in to the fullness of their ministry in Jesus, and as fellow slaves to our Master! We need you. You need us, Ephesians...One body, one Lord, One faith, One Baptism. We as a church, have been robbed, and I want to see restoration, in the order that God commanded.
| 2008/7/1 9:28|
| Re: Sell your soul to whom? - on gender roles|
I havent ignored your post, Brothertom, just wished to let it mull a bit. And now, I feel a need to precede my list with some critical disclaimers.
Just yesterday my husband drew my attention to a survey he read on gender roles, pointing out that females tend to choose occupations where they can work with living beings, whereas males are more inclined to prefer working with non-living things.
That thought dovetails nicely with the scriptures the Lord gave me surrounding this matter: the account of Mary and Martha. Martha was chastised by Jesus because she had placed the role of ministering to people ahead of the need to receive spiritual food from Jesus. Here we see an ever present temptation for women: the need to help others in order to feel right about themselves and gratified. While the desire to minister [serving: Gr. v. diakoneo] may be a noble aspiration, it can also become a snare, as the Mary/Martha account illustrates.
In fact, James 1:13-15 is an appropriate reference here: evil desire leads to sin which leads ultimately to death. Now, that is just what I am seeing in the role of ministry in the church, and many are falling right into the trap. In our various denominations the minister/pastor is typically not nearly as much a leader as a follower. He/she must follow the dictates and philosophies of the denomination which to a significant extent in these days are a compromised message of the Gospel: politically correct, people pleaser, worldly philosophy. In other words, unwittingly, they may actually be a pawn for somebody elses evil desires, including political agendas.
Is it worth selling your soul to this in order to satisfy your need to be needed, or your desire to have equality, status, a good pension, and a sense of great achievement academically. In the end of the day, rather than having helped bring life, you may discover that you have merely helped bring about death.
After we do some more mulling, I will include a brief list of names of women who I regard as having been true leaders in the name of the Lord
.. I do so not to justify anyone's agenda but to strengthen our own faith and make us desire to be more like Mary.
Without a doubt the Lord can use those who have their priorities right. And it doesnt have to be in the context of organized religion but it may include that.
To my fellow sisters (and brothers too), May we find our fulfilment in the Lord himself. And then unmet needs will not defile our passions.
"Blessed are the poor in spirit....... blessed are.... blessed are..... blessed are.......... " (Get the picture?)
| 2008/7/2 9:56||Profile|
| Re: Burnt out or blazing for Christ - on women|
over the years, after youve encountered far too many burnt-out, wounded, sick, embittered soldiers of the church both in the clergy and the laity, you begin to feel that this debate over gender roles is like staring cross-eyed at a sliver extracted from a monstrous log jam.
One of the logs in the jam could be our inability recognize the extent to which we have applied a worldly understanding of authority and submission to the church and the biblical text. Another, as Ive pointed out, is the issue of subconscious unmet needs leading to faulty reasons for desiring roles in the church... Also throw into the mix the problem of relational/societal dysfunction... ecclesiastical baggage from past centries....
Another log is our inability to recognize human limitations, and the propensity to do Gods job while failing to let God be God.
God only knows what other logs exist - that we fail to see because their enormity blocks our vision. Our understanding of Biblical text is bound to be obstructed by these logs. Thus, in view of such a malady among us, Gods people, perhaps its time to hush up which is what I need to do!
Well, now that I have said my piece, I post a few names. But, really, it in no way remotely recognizes many of our faithful sisters: I think of a friend, a Wycliffe Bible translator in North Africa. I think of another sister who teaches and counsels pastors in Italy, another friend who directs a home mission....
(googling the names should lead to book titles)
Fanny Crosby (who was a dynamic preacher in league with Moody and Sankey)
Dr. Pauline Hamilton To a Different Drum (I highly recommend it and its only 1 cent on Amazon.com!!)
Corry Ten boon
Kay Arthur (who has done wonderful ground breaking work in bringing inductive Bible study into the hands of the laity.)
Of course the brightest lights for the Lord will be those whom we will never know till eternity. Maybe highest honor will go to the unnamed faithful mother who teaches in her home by example, word and deed, and who prays, solitarily, for her family.
| 2008/7/3 6:30||Profile|
| Re: Roadsign...I am your brother.|
I could not help but sense your weariness in it all....a kind of submission to the futility that we, and you have been subjected to, by the institutions of men. After all, you are one half of Heaven. Have you been handicapped by being created female?
I think not. I believe that we, the body, have not realized the implications of one body yet; but we will. We as the church, has not yet understood the "neither male nor female" reality of the anointing, as described in Isaiah 61. This is far above Pastoral ministry, or church government. This is the ministry. This is the anointing, and it is not male, nor is it female. It is Jesus. Christ in us, the hope of glory, for a dying world.
Thank you for all of the links to Christian sisters who are, and have been used of God. The tragedy is in our local assemblies...right next to us. Many anointed and called, and wonderfully gifted ones, have resigned. They have quit, seeing an impossible bridge, an unfordable river. We meet as one body; we live as one body. We must receive the giftings in ourselves, and the freedom in Christ, to realize grace in us; woman or man.
Every word in Isaiah 61 is for all of us, who have the Holy Spirit as a dowry, a promise. We must not let it be squandered. We lose, as our sisters are oppressed in their faith to act on the anointing within. Soon, we will need each other more, and my hope is that our assemblies will reflect Heaven, where I assure you, there are no respecters of persons.
Government and the teaching of doctrine are within the father and male role alone. This is in the pattern of Christ Jesus, and His Bride, as it always has been. The ministry of Himself, as Christ in us, the comforter, is neither male, nor female. Let us see a revolution to upturn this theft back to our Creators intentions and behold equality and honor for all who carry Heaven, either male, or female!
| 2008/7/14 23:18|
| Re: Important.|
The ministry of our sisters in the body, and in the assembly is of importance to me, and I believe to the Lord. We can no longer let Chauvinism, or legalism prohibit our sisters from the expression of Christ in them, according to Isaiah 61...the ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is neither [b]male nor female.[/b]
I do not know exactly what this looks like...maybe no one does in our age, but I believe our assemblies will demonstrate an equality such as Ephesus, or Corinth possessed.
Ant female has the exact same opportunity to become yoked and conformed to Jesus of Nazareth as any brother; bearing the same cross, and the same shame.....as a forgiven and cleansed offspring of God Himself!
We all may agree here, but do we consider the truth of it?..And if so, do we reflect these truths in our assemblies? May be God formed house churches is an answer...that are incorporated into a larger meeting at "Solomons Portico?" Never the less, it is obvious in the new testament that sisters were equals, and gifted.
I have marked in my bible, and especially ACTS, each instance a woman was used in ministry. A bunch! All over the place! and in some instances, travelled with Paul in foundational ways.
No government, nor governmental teaching.....but all of the anointing!!!!..as portrayed in Isaiah 61.
I have "drawn up" this thread again, not to puff my ideas..but to hold this missing link before you all. It must be addressed before the Lord will fully endorse us..and we need to get it right, and to make it right.. If there is no interest..then it is not the time..but it is still the truth...I'll let it fade.
| 2008/7/23 21:49|
We seem to be living in a ministry-crazed world where everyone from middle school on in the religious circle has to have a ministry, often, without even having learned Christ, nor to know how to walk in the Spirit with diligence...
One should perhaps offer one's service as in:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
I haven't read this thread at all really,apologize ahead if this sounds a bit negative, but the title caught my attention. I recently met a 24 year old girl who got all confused when approached by her church that offers her a ministry as a deaconess!!?? (yeah, like Priscilla in Scripture)
So many want to have their own "ministries", so few are willing to love, so far fewer can live holy lives...yeah, I remember I once was tempted too when I was approached to head a dance ministry in a big Baptist church !? Quite ridiculous indeed. Ministry and glamor !?
Serve our Lord by knowing Him, loving Him, praying for one another, sacrificing for one another, providing for the brethren in need, enough of the titles,jargons..etc
| 2008/7/23 23:36||Profile|
| Re: Common Union.|
Christ in us, the hope of glory. That Christ, is neither male nor female. It is the anointing.
Read the thread. You may be surprised, for it is not about traditional ministry, but about the ministry of Christ in us....the hope of Glory. We do, and we become. God made an equal way to serve for Sisters, as well as Greeks and gentiles of all sexes.
| 2008/7/23 23:52|
Dear Brother Tom,
Until you have been under the headship of a woman you have no idea what you are exposing people to.
I have known of many men who under the supposed freedom of humanism have been exposed to woman teachers. Not someone like Jacki Pullinger who I believe while she is an amazing preacher is literally wearing the pants.
Some take liberties with the scripture whilst knowing all along that they are using patchwork theology. This is nothing new.
Women who start out ok, and then take the reins from their husbands, or from their pastor usually do it because the head is too weak. The body is not submitted to Christ. That is only the first part.
It is saying I only get what I want - sex, a happy home if I give what she wants - control.
This is the point females have a desire for control. Read genesis 4, the desire for your husband literally means desire for headship over her husband. Not wanting to well, you know...
Secondly until you have seen the results of feminism and humanism in the church. These are the greatest tools of satan in destroying the godly Christian home. In short if godly wives should not submit neither should the bride submit to Christ, nor Christ on the cross submit to the will of the father, as Paul put it, "God forbid".
The most recent occurrence of this was as a guest on a radio show, where a woman called the carcus in matthew 24 Christ rapturing the church. It gets crazier by the minute! She claimed God showed her, and she preached this message in malaysia. I hope to put this on the internet because I have access to a recording of the programme.
I have had three guys that I know all have their wives leave them all with the so called jezebel spirit (it's just a name I believe but it could be an actual spirit - I don't know).
One was accused of mollesting his daughter which was a proven lie, the other had his wife (both christian families in both cases) go back to her ex-husband (likely she is cheating on her second husband). In all three cases it was remarriages which opens up another can of worms.
In all three cases they admitted to marrying that person because she was hot and there was a lack of submission on the wifes part and a real desire to destroy the men who they left.
We reap what we sow and for me as a unmarried 27 year old man I have seen enough to make me wait for a godly wife, rather than some pants wearing uncovered hairy armpit (figuratively) body building lumberjack who lords control over her husband. :-o
Proof texting is not an appropriate way to look at this issue either as it uses verses out of context. Sorry brothertom.
| 2008/7/23 23:53||Profile|