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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Women in ministry:..All of Isaiah 61.....Your thoughts?

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 Re:RBANKS: All power, no Government



RBanks: Women are not to teach, nor our they to usurp authority over men. This is not because they are the weaker vessel, which the Word declares they [b]are[/b] [I didn't write that!], but because they are separated from all [b]Governmental ministry; IE, [/b] Pastoring, teaching, and doctrinal matters. This may include the fact that women are weaker vessels by nature, and that the Head of the Woman is man, and the Head of every man, is Christ.



I hope this doesn't anger you. but My input here is that everything in Isaiah 61, which is in effect, [b]the Ministry[/b], is neither male nor female. It is a control issue, or governmental conflict , that is centered around Teaching, and Pastoral duties that are in Question here. Ministry, not teaching, or the dispensing of power, is the focus of the Liberty for all, in Isaiah 61.


I will reiterate; I have not found one woman teacher, or Pastor, that had not entered into some form of error, and the longer they did it, the more profound the error. This includes the wives of Pastors, that have assumed the role of their husbands, the dreaded ... Pastorette! "Pastors John and Suzy Doe!" Expect apostasy around the next bend....Really.


Some of greatest Saints, and powerful, have been women. The ministry is Isaiah 61. That is neither male nor female.


I would enjoy another thread to hear your definition of this, for I think it delves into the ROOT of the matter, and I really want to see my sisters set free.

 2008/6/26 11:23
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

Brothertom wrote:


RBanks: Women are not to teach, nor our they to usurp authority over men. This is not because they are the weaker vessel, which the Word declares they [b]are[/b] [I didn't write that!], but because they are separated from all [b]Governmental ministry; IE, [/b] Pastoring, teaching, and doctrinal matters. This may include the fact that women are weaker vessels by nature, and that the Head of the Woman is man, and the Head of every man, is Christ.



I hope this doesn't anger you. but My input here is that everything in Isaiah 61, which is in effect, [b]the Ministry[/b], is neither male nor female. It is a control issue, or governmental conflict , that is centered around Teaching, and Pastoral duties that are in Question here. Ministry, not teaching, or the dispensing of power, is the focus of the Liberty for all, in Isaiah 61.


I will reiterate; I have not found one woman teacher, or Pastor, that had not entered into some form of error, and the longer they did it, the more profound the error. This includes the wives of Pastors, that have assumed the role of their husbands, the dreaded ... Pastorette! "Pastors John and Suzy Doe!" Expect apostasy around the next bend....Really.


Some of greatest Saints, and powerful, have been women. The ministry is Isaiah 61. That is neither male nor female.


I would enjoy another thread to hear your definition of this, for I think it delves into the ROOT of the matter, and I really want to see my sisters set free.



Not angry at all! I went back and looked at your 1st post for some clarity. My posts are in defense of women being able to teach as well as yours. I was only implying what I have heard someone else say not what you have said.

Here is something to think about. In general the bible says that a woman is the weaker vessel (meaning feminine vs. masculine) and that she was deceived. The bible also says the woman is not to power over the man (chiefly meaning her husband who is her head)but also could mean having the chief authority over an assembly.

We know any person male or female, if not grounded in the word can lead people astray. We must judge all teaching by the foundational teaching already laid. We also know that the cross deals with the old man (male & female). So a person (male or female)must be dealt with by the cross, rooted in the word and spirit-filled in order to do ministry acceptable to God. The spirit of God qualifies them for ministry.

Here is where I disagree with some who would shoot all the women down from teaching/preaching because they are a woman, as Paul did not do because they were laboring with him in the gospel. Scripture is clear, God pours out his spirit on sons and daughters to prophesy.

Peter even said in his writings that the leaders were to be examples and were not to Lord over God's heritage. We all must have a covering. The man's head is Christ but let us not think that the woman's head is not also Christ. Where the woman is not married, she has no other head but Christ only. But when the woman is married, her head is her husband because God has given the leadership responsibility to the man to love his wife like Christ loved the church and to look out for the welfare of his home. Sad to say not many are striving to do this!

The main government of the local church should be lead by spirit filled, rooted in the word,(most of the time)men of God. Women who are spirit filled and also rooted in the word should not be disqualified because of their agenda, they should only be disqualified when they are not teaching/preaching sound doctrine which by the way disqualifies men also.

I have trouble with anyone being the sole authority. I will say according to the bible and the way God has designed women as being feminine instead of masculine that they are not to desire authority over men. But they are not to be disqualified from ministry, of the spirit in teaching/preaching.

I believe to pastor a church, is generally for the man. I know of a few women pastors. I will not shoot them down, although I believe they need to be under authority. If they are married they are not to have authority over their husband. They are not to be the sole authority of their local church. The man also must be accountable when he is ministering the word.

all for now,

rbanks

 2008/6/26 12:59Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

rbanks,

I respect your views, but your entire post is your opinion on the matter backed up with the following claims:

I believe,
I will,
I have,
also could mean,
should be,
should not be,
let us not think,
I disagree,


Do you see where this is going? Your entire post is a conjucture of personal thoughts.


Quote:
–noun 1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.
3. Obsolete. the interpretation of signs or omens.
–verb (used with object) 4. to conclude or suppose from grounds or evidence insufficient to ensure reliability.
–verb (used without object) 5. to form conjectures.




Brother. Your personal beliefs are of no matter in this case. The scripture that Krispy posted is not up for debate or for a guideline. It is the written word of God that needs to be obeyed.

To try to change its meaning means that you are trying to change the word of God. This is sin.


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/6/26 13:39Profile









 Re: Miccah: I don't speak for God. It's just me. But I believe Him, when He does.




Since this is called a forum, or discussion table, and not a dictitorial proclamation or teaching platform, I have deferred my convictions into a spirit of submission and fellowship, exactly as you have stated.



I have declared the Word of God, without such compromise[that is of love, and acknowledging that my views are certainly

[b]not[/b] the final answer.] before in Evangelical preachings and teachings, where His Word Alone, and the spirit of truth proclaimed the Savior. There is much that I do not understand about these issues. Perhaps you may believe otherwise about yourself, or others who may comment, alive our deceased, on this forum.




In the End of it, hasn't Scripture been sealed with the REVELATION?...and isn't every thing we say about it, somewhat subjective to [b]our[/b] understanding of it?



Because we are not God, or the "APOSTOLIC VOICE" here on this [b]discussion forum[/b], then might that mean we have our own views of a matter?


Micah?..How long have you been around here? I don't recall any of your opinions prefaced with ,"Thus saith the Lord!" You don't think that, do you? Then, it is your very own outlook, or opinion, isn't it? Therefore , if your not a Divine instrument, in the contexts of your many posts[which I have generally enjoyed], then you are giving your opinions, your experiences, your thoughts, and your disagreements, aren't you?



Getting back to the Ball, not the player. I prefaced my remarks about the Pastorate, or in most cases the unscriptural practice of a dual husband and wife team as co-Pastors, as, in my experience, a guaranteed trip to deception. I proclaim it to be the Word of God, and something that the Lord has commanded not to do. I am also commanded to know them by their fruit. In the observation of this fruit, I have seen corruption. This has came through the denial of very clear New Testament doctrines. Women have no place in Government, and every place with Christ, His Love, and power ministries according to all of Isaiah 61.

 2008/6/26 14:35
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Thank you for the rebuke Brothertom. As always with a fellow brothers rebuke towards me, I will pray on it and seek the Lord.

You words towards me, though they may be well placed, do not circumvent the inspired word of God and His commands, and does not change the meaning of His word. If I convey this poorly, I appologize and ask for forgiveness.

But, when people try to change the word of God for self-serving purposes, I am commanded to address it, as are you. It has been addressed.

If you believe me not to be a false prophet, please pray that the Lord speaks through me, and not against me.


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/6/26 15:10Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

Miccah wrote:
rbanks,

I respect your views, but your entire post is your opinion on the matter backed up with the following claims:

I believe,
I will,
I have,
also could mean,
should be,
should not be,
let us not think,
I disagree,


Do you see where this is going? Your entire post is a conjucture of personal thoughts.




Brother. Your personal beliefs are of no matter in this case. The scripture that Krispy posted is not up for debate or for a guideline. It is the written word of God that needs to be obeyed.

To try to change its meaning means that you are trying to change the word of God. This is sin.



I think I will just let those without sin cast the stones!

My thoughts are from my understanding. I want that to be clear, because I do fear God. I believe his word and my understanding is not -thus saith the Lord. I would be very much afraid to claim that God said something He did not say.

I only pray that my personal thoughts will be pleasing in God's sight, so that when I convey them to others, they can see the love of God. I have not reached perfection. But I am trusting in Him who is perfect, and I hope to be conformed into his likeness.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Just my opinion, (not thus saith the Lord out of my fear of God to never say such a thing, because it is truly my understanding),Our thoughts and revelations that we receive from our study of the word of God will be our understanding, that will also shape and mold our character.

It is very important how we interpret the word of God. The reason so many are in error today is because they think their understanding is a thus saith the Lord. They can quote the scriptures and think they understand it but they will not come to the living Christ that they might have life.

just my personal thoughts -rbanks

 2008/6/26 15:45Profile









 Re:We are brothers, on the same road.




To Miccah: I perceive you as a brother, the same as I see myself. Like me, you have not yet been perfected, and yet desire to be in your pursuit of Jesus. This, is what a disciple inherently is. We all may disagree, and remember that fellowship [b]is not[/b] a meeting of the minds, but a meeting of our Spirits, sanctified in Him.


The pure and spotless redeemed Bride, undoubtedly has been fragmented on Earth, in thought, but also undeniably reconciled in Spirit. All of the redeemed will be there, even the ones that fought tooth and nail about doctrine while here on the Earth. I don't mind your disagreement with me at all. I want to add as a caveat, that it seems when we try to contain God, put Him in our Box, so to speak, He has a habit of thrashing it,; exploding it, and proclaiming that "My ways are higher than your ways, as far as the Heavens are higher than the Earth.!"


If God chooses another Deborah, to command the Army; it is OK with me. He has done it before, in the Church. Yet, in principle, the Word denies access to government to women.


I want to see my sisters clothed with Christ, and His power, the exact same as I desire myself and my Brothers to. We are one body, and each of us has the ability by grace, to be as close to Jesus, and His Authority as anyone who has ever lived. All of the Anointing for my sisters, none in the government realm.


Saying that, I agree that many try to change the Word of God, and twist it for their own benefits, or ideas. See Acts Chapter 20, for Pauls thoughts on this matter. I do not want myself caught up in this type of ministry. I always need to humble myself, though, for I am as apt as any to bring down my sword upon my brothers head, just to feel good about me being right. This is the nature of my self, created after the Devil, through my dad, Adam.

 2008/6/26 16:23
NGodsLove
Member



Joined: 2008/6/26
Posts: 2


 Re:

Why will it not occur in our present system. What is meant by "outside the camp?"

 2008/6/26 20:17Profile









 Re: Godslove:

Quote:
"outside the camp"



Generally it is the Word that Jesus spoke about "New wine must be poured into new wineskins!". This has been occurring since the resurrection within the walls of the Church, as the Church"settles on it's leas", a term of self sufficiency, or the template of the Laodicean rebuke in Revelation. We tend toward a form of Godliness, while in Reality throw down our Cross, in Favor of self serving gospels; those of health, happiness, and financial prosperity as paramount, rather than be changed inwardly as Christ. We no longer need God, as we are content with our own success and comfort.


Jesus was only received outside of the camp, and it was there that He was Crucified. Hebrews, the Bible book, exhorts us to meet Jesus, in this context. "Let us go unto Him, outside the camp".....



This is where the remnant Church has always been, with few exceptions. The reason is that the Pharisee's control the temple ground, the clergy/laity, the Nicolaitan one man rule..[and the pyramid of rulers under them..] and the vestiges of all Holy Spirit issues that have been quenched by mans smelly hand of domination. This is where the Lord Himself is denied, and quenched.


So the Lord Himself made a way, even in the wilderness,,,,,and outside of the Camp of religious Babylon. This is the Radical wilderness home of the early Church at Jerusalem, and the primitive foundations that the Apostle Paul layed....outside of the camp.

 2008/6/26 23:05
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

Brothertom wrote:
Quote:
"outside the camp"



Generally it is the Word that Jesus spoke about "New wine must be poured into new wineskins!". This has been occurring since the resurrection within the walls of the Church, as the Church"settles on it's leas", a term of self sufficiency, or the template of the Laodicean rebuke in Revelation. We tend toward a form of Godliness, while in Reality throw down our Cross, in Favor of self serving gospels; those of health, happiness, and financial prosperity as paramount, rather than be changed inwardly as Christ.


Jesus was only received outside of the camp, and it was there that He was Crucified. Hebrews, the Bible book, exhorts us to meet Jesus, in this context. "Let us go unto Him, outside the camp".....



This is where the remnant Church has always been, with few exceptions. The reason is that the Pharisee's control the temple ground, the clergy/laity, the Nicolaitan one man rule..[and the pyramid of rulers under them..] and the vestiges of all Holy Spirit issues that have been quenched by mans smelly hand of domination. This is where the Lord Himself is denied, and quenched.


So the Lord Himself made a way, even in the wilderness,,,,,and outside of the Camp of religious Babylon. This is the Radical wilderness home of the early Church at Jerusalem, ans the primitive foundations that the Apostle Paul layed....outside of the camp.



Awesome response Brothertom!!! This needs to be read over & over again.

Brother your posts have blessed me tremendously!

Thanks -rbanks

 2008/6/26 23:10Profile





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