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 Re:

I laughed cnyusa when I read about that pause on the phone and the "american way"
In one sense the world definitely confirms that it's following its way and not God's ways. On the other hand I wish that I had faith enough that I would have compassion in my heart for people who think that way instead of just taking consolation from it. Thank you for the encouragement, truly. If it pleases God, I also will not borrow money for a "house" (mansions are what they really are).

pastorfrin my heart skipped a beat when you quoted revelation. I'm listening to the link you posted right now - he's talking about the world's reaction to the unworldly in the first minute or so and I'm excited to hear it.

I was thinking about the mark a couple hours ago in connection with all this financial talk. I wonder if there might be whole churches full of people singing worship songs in the end, all having this mark. An imaginary example:

"I LOVE Jesus, but I HAD to get the mark, what do you want me to do? DIE? I have a FAMILY to take care of. You have a family right? There's something wrong with you if you think God doesn't want you to provide for your family."

I know that sounds ugly and I think it's the kind of thing we should all expect.

 2008/6/21 1:44
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:

HeartSong wrote:
Quote:
Great conversation, but not a salvation issue.



Oh but it is! He saves us from all bondage if we but trust and obey.



So, God stated

[u][b]John 3:16 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life......AND he who obtains no debt. ???

Love ya

:-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/6/21 2:35Profile
wta
Member



Joined: 2007/4/8
Posts: 68
Canadian in America (Bremerton, WA) "A stranger in a strange land..."

 Re:

This is a great thread with an important issue at its heart. My wife is a debt management specialist (she councils people on how to get out of debt) and the whole credit industry is very sorted from the top down.
With that said the following verses have been used as proof text to not be in debt but unfortunately that interpretation is taken out of context...

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
Rom 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Rom 13:5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
Rom 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

This section of scripture is talking about honor and love and respect relating to authorities people in general. The following is a breakdown from the renowned theologian Adam Clark...

Rom 13:8 -
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another - In the preceding verses the apostle has been showing the duty, reverence, and obedience, which all Christians, from the highest to the lowest, owe to the civil magistrate; whether he be emperor, king, proconsul, or other state officer; here he shows them their duty to each other: but this is widely different from that which they owe to the civil government: to the first they owe subjection, reverence, obedience, and tribute; to the latter they owe nothing but mutual love, and those offices which necessarily spring from it. Therefore, the apostle says, Owe no man; as if he had said: Ye owe to your fellow brethren nothing but mutual love, and this is what the law of God requires, and in this the law is fulfilled. Ye are not bound in obedience to them as to the civil magistrate; for to him ye must needs be subject, not merely for fear of punishment, but for conscience sake: but to these ye are bound by love; and by that love especially which utterly prevents you from doing any thing by which a brother may sustain any kind of injury.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Adam Clarke, LL.D., F.S.A., (1715-1832)

My wife and I have done some very deep study and prayer on this very issue because ultimately it's my wife's ministry to help God's people get out of debt and by this call we need to have a very good understanding of the heart of God and His word to teach with precision. Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting getting deep into credit is good or bad but the Lord's heart is the vital place to know for each person as individuals what is best at any given time. There were Old Testament laws for the lending and borrowing of money as has already been stated.
The Lord's church in the new testament are supposed to have all things in common (Acts 2) as this was the apostles' doctrine, of course the Lord Himself taught this principle to them so there should not be a need to borrow ever, the obvious problem is precious few have the heart to be obedient to the Lord in this matter and by this I believe we really get a working understanding of why there are so many challenges in the body, imo.

All for souls,

wta


_________________
William Thomas Anderson

 2008/6/21 2:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:
cnyusa wrote:
A few years back when my wife and I did look at buying a house and we decided against it. I called my realtor and said "We have decided not to buy a house because I'm not comfortable borrowing the money for it." There was a silence on the other end of the phone for a while. Then she finally said with confusion "But that's the American way?!" [b]I think we have really bought into the culture and [u]this credit issue in America is coming crashing down and it's already hurting many believers who have been told that borrowing is just a part of life[/u].[/b]



Amen, brother! When it crashes down many believers who believed God blessed them with a loan, and with a degree, and with a job, may lose their "faith".

Quote:
Miccah wrote:
Great conversation, but not a salvation issue. To make it one, in any degree, is minimizing the price that Christ paid.



Every issue is a salvation issue. For if we lack the reality we profess to have--or the works--then our faith is DEAD, and our salvation is an illusion.

Our faith is not made void when we cease to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It is enough to remove the works, and our faith will be dead. That is to say, if we willingly disobey the commandments of the Lord, even if we still believed He is God and He died for our sin and that we are forgiven, still [i]in our deeds we deny Him[/i]--and there is no reason to consider ourselves saved. Saved from what, by the way? On the last day He will say, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity!"

The faith that saves is not the mere mental adherence to or the learning of some preached doctrine, but understanding that doctrine and conforming your life to it. If you lack that reality, all that general salvation talk won't profit you at all!

 2008/6/21 6:46
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

cnyusa wrote:
A few years back when my wife and I did look at buying a house and we decided against it. I called my realtor and said "We have decided not to buy a house because I'm not comfortable borrowing the money for it." There was a silence on the other end of the phone for a while. Then she finally said with confusion [b][u]"But that's the American way?!"[/u][/b] [b]I think we have really bought into the culture and this credit issue in America is coming crashing down and it's already hurting many believers who have been told that borrowing is just a part of life.[/b]

Brother, this is precious revelation! How far has the church fallen down that even the heathens to declare that this is [b]American way[/b], not God's way. The conviction is coming from heathen's mouths, but you have been open and sensitive to hear, understand and obey this. This should be embarrassing to the church in America.

I am writing you these words as an encouragement to you and other brothers in America who may read this and will be encouraged by your testimony to follow God's ways, from perspective of a brother who is not from America. And can clearly see what you have seen "we have really bought into the culture..." and not just in this issue, but in many, [b]many[/b] others. As education, lifestyle, lifting up the system as god and many other idols, which are not made from wood and stones, but from things that are so common and accepted as "normal" and "good" in the society and the system driven by satan himself.

Brother Art Katz used to say, 'you are too american', he was american and boldly preached that and that's why he was not accepted in many places where conventional american christianity was preached. I am not american, but I will say that most of the christians in America are more americans than christians! And this is something to be considered and not lightly rejected.

Be encouraged brother, it is encouragement for me personally to see the remnant brothers in USA!

Kire

cnyusa wrote:
A few years back when my wife and I did look at buying a house and we decided against it. I called my realtor and said "We have decided not to buy a house because I'm not comfortable borrowing the money for it." There was a silence on the other end of the phone for a while. Then she finally said with confusion [b][u]"But that's the American way?!"[/u][/b] [b]I think we have really bought into the culture and this credit issue in America is coming crashing down and it's already hurting many believers who have been told that borrowing is just a part of life.[/b]

 2008/6/21 7:26Profile
daniel-
Member



Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130
Germany

 Re:

Quote:
When it crashes down many believers who believed God blessed them with a loan, and with a degree, and with a job, may lose their "faith".



Hello NotMe,

I wonder, are you saying that having a degree and a good job means compromise and being a slave to this world?`

I would like you to clarify the practical outworking of your views.

Daniel


_________________
Daniel Sahm

 2008/6/21 10:07Profile









 Re:

[EDIT: I need to apologize for posting a text I did not get to proofread. Finally I did correct the errors and made sure I said what I had meant, without adding content to the text or removing from it. -- NotMe]

Quote:
Daniel wrote:
I wonder, are you saying that having a degree and a good job means compromise and being a slave to this world?`

I would like you to clarify the practical outworking of your views.



Hello, Daniel.

I know many people who have degrees, but those degrees don't mean anything to them. The whole system of accreditation which the world has created, which is based on having the piece of paper and creating a certain good image of yourself rather than on Christlike character and the wisdom which comes from above. The truth is that our educational system is led by people who don't have the Spirit of Christ--even in most Christian institutions. Thus what they teach--namely, teaching people HOW to think, HOW to act, WHAT to value, WHAT to take for granted--is based on the basic principles of the world. It is impossible to thrive in such a place as a Christian because the yeast leavens the whole lump of dough--and being exposed to that spirit cannot leave you unscathed. It makes things that are unreal or evil seem perfectly logical and acceptable to us--because we don't know the Scriptures or the power of God, and because the Word is not made flesh in us.

I am not saying we don't need to get educated. On the contrary, we need to learn and understand the world. People perish for a lack of knowledge. We also need to work to provide for ourselves and our families. But our education and our employment are to depend on the wisdom and provision of God. What we have in the secular educational system (public schools, colleges, etc.) is incompatible with being taught by God. There is just so much chaff to separate, so much worldly wisdom to beware of, so that pursuing a degree as a prerequisite for getting a better-paying job usually involves such compromise with our conscience and the Word that when we have graduated, people's spiritual condition is usually worse than in the beginning. The influence is so pervasive and comprehensive... So we need to test everything in light of the Word--not just people's or our teachers' words, but also their motives and their actions--and to cling to that which is good. But if those teachers are ungodly people or Christians who in deed deny the Lord who bought them, we are promised to become like them. For it is written:

"And He spoke a parable to them: "Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained [i]will be like his teacher[/i]" (Luke 6:39-40).

If we have ungodly or backslidden or heretical teachers, we are promised to become like them... unless we choose to not be taught by them. Especially for a young person who is not well-versed in the Word and hasn't matured in the Lord, such a course of study can be very detrimental.

I was very young in the faith when I entered college, and it wasn't until two years later when I saw the fruit of everything I was learning there. And the Lord gave me the eyes to see how everything that I was taught, although it purported to be wise and good, in reality subverted everything God was teaching me at the time. So I distanced myself from many fields of study and programs and people and organizations, which I saw as enemies of the Lord... In the end I realized that there were two distinct paths which I had to choose between: either to bow down to the Lord and His Word alone, or to also allow the wisdom of the world a place in my heart, to give it undue authority--which I knew was idolatry. So although I was very close to graduating, I could continue no further. I saw that everything I was being taught (I pursued a degree in the humanities) was subsumed in lies and ungodliness. I also saw that being a part of the class discussions and writing the assigned papers meant compromise--for I was endorsing a certain philosophy of education and mode of thinking and living which was opposed to the Lord at its core. And that only to get the desired degree, so I could get the better job... And then I understood that this path of compromise was only the beginning. Had I gotten the diploma this way, I was in fact saying it was good. The next step was to get a job, a house, a car, perhaps a higher degree--all of which things were BUILT UPON the same system and the same wisdom of this world which all lay in the hands of the enemy. And yes, there was persecution and much resistance, especially from people in the churches (like Chris here on SI and many, many others), to the point that most everyone said, "You need to get your diploma. What are you going to do without it?" But even though I was alone, I could not deny my Lord. I have never regretted my decision.

Now what I studied were humanistic disciplines. But even the science classes weren't very different. For in my teachers' worldview there was no God. And even those who claimed to be Christians didn't seem to know the God of the Bible, the God that I knew and tried to serve. You can't imagine how much I wrestled... Weeks, months. I went back and forth, vacillating between the two alternatives... I was so discouraged at times. I fell into weeks of rebellion against the Lord. I lost my faith almost. But in the end the Lord was so gracious to me, and He had so changed my heart, that it was impossible for me to stay there and complete what I had begun.

Now there is a difference between learning and being brainwashed, between being taught by God and having your head stuffed by people, in their way and in their timing, according to their prescriptions and rules. The first is liberty and life; the second is bondage and death.

So you may ask: how about getting a job then, if I have no education? There are so many layers of our disobedience in these last days. First we must be separated from the world before we can be priests and kings unto God. We must be disenchanted with the glamor of the world, from its dreams and pursuits. We are to be a nation!!! Not lone Christians here and there, but a COMMUNITY, which alone is able to grow into the fullness of Christ. This cannot happen if we are scattered in the cities of the world, each having turned to his own way. We have become individualists, but this never was the Lord's intention: "That they may be one as We are one" He said. And how can such unity be born out of the fragmentation, isolation of our lives? When we spend most of our time with the people of the world, talk about the things that interest the world, do the things that the world enjoys, etc., and have become totally estranged as a [i]community[/i]--which I can say the modern church hardly is--from the purposes of the kingdom of God. We have not sought after His kingdom first and His righteousness, but we have run like Gentiles after other things.

I won't have the time to finish this now. There is so much more I can add. I wrote about what we shouldn't be and do, but there is so much we should. The end of the matter is: if the Lord LEADS you and ALLOWS you to study something as a PART OF HIS PURPOSE FOR YOUR LIFE, go ahead with it. But if your education or your job leads you into confusion and compromise, and separates from the perfect will of God, do sacrifice it.

There are so many practical skills I could have learned in the five years I spent in colleges with which to make a living. But the first shall be last and the last shall be first.

Slavyan

 2008/6/21 11:06
daniel-
Member



Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130
Germany

 Re:

Quote:
I know many people who have degrees, but those degrees don't mean anything to them.



Quote:
if the Lord LEADS you and ALLOWS you to study something as a PART OF HIS PURPOSE FOR YOUR LIFE, go ahead with it. But if your education or your leads you into confusion and compromise and separates from the perfect will of God, do sacrifice it.



Hello NotMe,

thanks for your post. I understand your view and agree with a lot of it. You said many good things.
The problem is that the way you are writing here seems to imply that everyone here who is pursuing a diploma or degree or something that is found in this 'world' is in fact compromised.

You yourself wrote that you know people who have diplomas but they mean nothing to them.

Please give the brothers and sisters here a fair dealing and do not declare someone as 'less holy' or 'compromised' or even 'not saved' simply because he writes about his studies or his college.

Having said that I do agree with your last post to me and I am finding myself in a struggle in my 'christian' workplace, too, where I see the people acting and being dishonest.
I feel tormented for being involved in that.

God bless,
Daniel


_________________
Daniel Sahm

 2008/6/21 11:25Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Dear Daniel, we should also not forget that we are talking these subjects in the light of the perilous end times that are upon us, and in the light of the times when "heathens rage" and "the kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD". And if they are gathering against our Lord, how much more against His children on earth.

We are heading the greatest persecution in the history, as the Word says "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

The ways and means, how our faith to be destroyed by the enemy are unlimited. And the most dangerous are those that are "normal" way of living, learning, acting, speaking, earning money, but normal for who? For the satanic system in which we are living, or normal according to the principles of God? Also other question was raised are we married or not, do we have house or not, as the principles of God are relative and changeable and dependent to [i]our[/i] situation and circumstances. God forbid!

I should say that I have an university "degree", but I will tell you that the day when I took that paper in my hands, I was about to vomit. My spirit received it as a piece of paper that I should be very careful with, and if it is required from me I would tear it with gladness.

This sickness in my spirit was because of the reason that I know fellows who have sold their souls to the devil for this piece of paper. And not only for this moment of receiving it, but for what this paper will bring them in the future, "better payed job" - i.e. this paper is becoming a god that will provide you a "good living" or that will take care for your living and your bread in the future. And there is no need to mention that many has sold their souls for the pleasures and luxuries of the flesh that this world (satan) will offer them through this piece of paper (which Paul calls rubbish)

Brother Slavyan said something very important,

Quote:
There is just so much chaff to separate, so much worldly wisdom to beware of, so that pursuing a degree as a [b]prerequisite[/b] for getting a better paying job



Note the word [b]prerequisite[/b]. Also check [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=18844&forum=48&start=60&viewmode=flat&order=0#184249]this post[/url] and note the word "trusted". (of course if you ask many of today's christians they will tell you that they don't 'trust' in their 'paper', but it is not what we say and what are doctrines are, but what we live and how we live, this is what it matters. Our only hope is in Him, Who is not dependant on our human abilities to take care for our bread. And mostly He chose to use is:

1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Only in this He receives the glory, in every other human ways where the flesh is boasting, the glory is ours, but also the shame one day.

Also
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=18844&forum=48&start=70&viewmode=flatorder=0#184351]this[/url] is very important on these subjects.

Maybe this is for other thread, but it is worthy to be mentioned that most of today's universities are simply workshops of satan for brainwashing and teaching his doctrines, principles, values, mainly for the purpose of entering them [i]once for all[/i] in his net from which is very difficult to be snatch out, but it is not impossible with the Lord, if there is repentance from the side of man. And of course the second purpose is making a world order the army of different kind of peoples, profiles and profession, that are used in direct rebellion toward our Lord, that we are witnessing every day. Even they will want to fight against Him one day. But:

Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be [b]bowed down[/b], and the LORD [b]alone[/b] shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

I will quote [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq_tcyPV7Vg]brother Voddie Baucham[/url] when he said:

"If we continue to send our children to Caesar for education, we need to stop being surprised when they come at home as romans."

This cannot be more true, because if we say that this is not true, then we must say also that the Lord's words are not true:

Luk 6:40 "A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, [b]will be like his teacher. [/b]

And if you say that you are [i]never[/i] in danger allowing satans teachers to train you, then that means you [i]are[/i]already their student and won by them.

And when we know this, then how much more we should be [i]careful[/i] of our participation in the enemies plans and systems in this world that is in direct rebellion toward our God. And how much more to be careful borrowing money from the rotten system in which we are living that is creation of the devil. The moment when we think that we have "right" to use this benefit from our system and that we gain something (house, car), it is happening the very opposite, we lose the most precious things that are from God (our faith, our freedom in Him) and we receive slavery to the lender as the Word says:

Pro 22:7 The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender's slave.

That's why I so much appreciate what our brother shared about George Muller:

Quote:
I am a big Fan of George Mueller. And had I learned of him before college, I don't believe I would have taken any student loans, better to not go at all... Anyway, I remember one story of Mr. Mueller returning money to a woman who gave to his orphanage work, he returned the money when he found out she had some debt. If that was a normal practice many of us would be disqualified to give.



What an encouragement is this giant of faith. And not just he, but "we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us".

In these last days and hours, and in days of the greatest apostasy, let us provoke ourselves unto more faith and in [i][b]real[/b][/i] trust in our Heavenly Father.

Kire

 2008/6/21 13:30Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

I highly recommend this message by Art Katz:

[b]The Tower of Babel[/b]
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=12182

 2008/6/21 13:41Profile





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