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BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

no electricity, no internet, no phone, no water, no Christian doctors, teachers/professors, businesses/owners, no car insurance (btw I am against it, but in America it's illegal not to have, at least in most states). Do you have electricity, water, internet, phone, etc.? how is it paid for? in America, it's credit, so the only way to avoid being "totally debt-free" is to not have any of these things.

I am not suggesting disobeying scriptures, but is there room for any of this, or do all Christians need to just move out of America (or live in primitive farming communities) and leave it be?


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2008/6/20 21:02Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi NotMe…

Quote:

I can say the same with you: I took loans to go to college, which I am now paying back--and there is a long way to go. At least the Lord delivered me in time: I quit after my third year seeing the insanity I was becoming a part of. On one hand, I am glad I finally left that path; however, I am saddened that it took me so long to realize what bondage this was--especially mentally--to live my life by such principles, which had nothing in common with the Christian faith I saw in the Word.


What are you implying? Are you implying that you should not have gone to college and earned a degree – or that you should not have taken student loans? What is the “bondage” that you are speaking of that you insist had “nothing in common with the Christian faith” that you saw in the Word?

I went to college on several scholarships after graduating from a public high school. I went on to earn two undergraduate degrees and a graduate degree. I am currently finishing my doctoral dissertation. I don’t believe that I am a slave to any of these things – because I count them as dung when COMPARED to the things of God. My wife has earned a BS and a MA. Although she received several academic scholarships, she did use government guaranteed Stafford loans to pay for some of her education. However, those loans have paid off.

A college degree can open up doors of employment opportunity that cannot be opened without a degree. For instance, you can NEVER teach in an accredited school without a college degree. You could never become a doctor without a degree. You could never become an Engineer or Scientist without a college degree. If you look through the HELP WANTED section of a newspaper or through online job websites, you will notice that a great many of these require an educational background (whether a high school diploma, training or a college degree). People with degrees are paid more for less hours of work. This allows a man to provide more adequately for his family as he is commanded by the Word of God. It also allows such a man to spend more time with his family too.

I have read several posts over the years in which the poster claims that a college degree (or a degree at a “secular” college) is ungodly or unscriptural. Personally, I just don’t believe the judgment upon which such an opinion (that is usually shared without an indication that it is, after all, an opinion) is based.
Quote:

You are taught to press on, to be strong, to always have your back covered. You are never put on your knees because you always muscle through everything. And if the Lord shows you mercy to put you to open shame and bring you to your knees, you are still taught to fight on and resist Him--"because through Christ you can do ALL things," even those contrary to the will of God. See how dangerous this is? But thank God He broke through that self-righteousness and showed me the idolatry and self-reliance in me. And how many a Christian is running down that same path... without raising a question. It is the trodden path and many walk in it, so why bother ask?


Brother, are you speaking of yourself here? Because this was NOT my experience. If anything, my college education and the affairs of this life have taught me to follow ever more closely after the things of God. I was never in danger of “losing my faith” while attending college or working a “secular” job. If such a thing is a problem, then the problem is not [u]college[/u] or a “secular” job; the problem is the result of a feeble relationship with Christ. I can stand in a college classroom and not only survive – but stand as a light. The same is true regardless of circumstance – at my “secular” job or in the grocery store. We need men and women, boys and girls who can walk with Jesus regardless of the lies of this world.
Quote:

"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." Romans 13:8

"The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender's slave." Proverbs 22:7
________________________________________


Such verses have become inapplicable in modern-day conditions. This is what many will say, decrying the clear teaching of the Word of God in order to save themselves some embarrassment. And such are no offense to this present world. To them the world will give praise and honor; they will never be considered a thorn in its flesh; for the world hears them and applauds them--for in them every good and self-righteous soulish quality is embodied. They have avoided the offense of the Cross of Christ!


Brother, no one is saying that these verses are “inapplicable in modern-day conditions.” And I don’t know anyone who is attempting to “save themselves some embarrassment” by acknowledging the possible acceptability of buying a home or car (or education, or Internet service, or phone service, or electricity, or rent, etc…) via monthly payments. But don’t you think that you are being a little, uh, melodramatic by claiming that such individuals are “self-righteous” and looking for the “applause” of the world? Are you claiming that anyone who earns a degree, purchases a home via monthly payments, etc… – has attempted to “avoid the offense of the Cross of Christ?” If this is what you’re trying to declare, then I have to admit that I find it just plain SILLY.
Quote:

These are those who teach you to get a degree, to get loans, insurance, and all that stuff, to secure your life--so you avoid hardship and persecution in this present age.

Huh?!? Where did you get such nonsense? We aren’t trying to avoid persecution! Speaking for myself, I want to be able to provide for my family more adequately. Scoff all you want, but a college degree can open the door to a better opportunity to fulfill God’s call for a man to provide for his family. If you don’t get a degree, you still must find a trade. You have to educate yourself to be a fisherman, a carpenter, a mechanic, etc… This isn’t to “[i]avoid hardship and persecution[/i].” It is to simply provide for ourselves and our families and not be a burden to someone else.
Quote:
These are the "judaizers" who want to make a boast in their flesh. I am not advocating laziness or irresponsibility here. But this is another spirit which has infiltrated modern churches. There is no totality to that "Christian" life, but balance. There is no persecution, but compromise. There is no love, but tolerance. There is no self-denial, but self-establishment. There are no clear-cut commandments of God, but flexible philosophies of men. And all that under the Christian banner.


Brother, you need to slow down. You are now calling those with who you disagree, “judaizers.” Do you think that it is wrong to provide for your family? Do you think that it is wrong to work with your own hands? This is what we are espousing. A college degree can provide an opportunity. A recent study by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in the United States revealed that the average college degree earns individuals more than twice the income of the average high school graduate (who, in turn, earns more than a high school dropout). It is not a sin to provide more adequately for your family. In fact, it IS a sin if you do not (I Timothy 5:8).
Quote:

I think we haven't learned to trust God for our needs. We'd rather go ahead and ask our neighbor, or parents, or the bank, or the government, when we are running out of steam. We have learned to go to God as a last measure, if everything else fails us. This doesn't mean that we should wait and do nothing (say, go to a restaurant for dinner with empty pockets and hope that we get a "free meal"). But all ways of provision that God has not approved and all means which He hasn't given should be out of the question. Yes, this may leave us empty-handed, but "will the Son of Man find faith on the earth when He returns?"


Interesting. I think that you can be right in this. However, sometimes instead of “running out of steam” (as you say), we might remember the story of Elijah running out of “[i]STREAM[/i].” Remember how he depended upon the Lord to provide for him via ravens and a brook? This was fine for Elijah for awhile. But Elijah became used to the idea of God providing for him (with no effort or work on Elijah’s part). Elijah may have enjoyed his little Ravine for years – but the brook dried up. At this point, God spoke to Elijah to move out of the Ravine and go to a poor widow woman’s house (and we know the story from there).

Today, we have many believers who depend upon God for everything. And why shouldn’t we? Our God is Jehovah Jireh – the LORD our Provider! God could turn rocks into bread for us if He wanted. He could bring fruit out of the ground and allow our oil to never run out. But we aren’t in Eden anymore. We are commanded by God to work with our hands and to provide for our families. All of the great men of God in the New Testament had a trade. They were not lazy men or “career” preachers who depended upon working believers to provide for all of their needs all of the time. Peter, James and John were fishermen. Paul was a Pharisee and a tentmaker. Luke was a physician. I am sure that their careers and very lives were at the disposal of God. Are we any different? Although I have earned several degrees – they are easily at the disposal of God! I would lay them down for Him in an instant! In fact, they are nothing to me compared with my relationship with Jesus!
Quote:

Only a man who has no other alternative but complete dependence on God for his daily bread knows what I am talking about. For so long as we get certain support from here and there--whether it is a barn or a bank account, which we can always resort to--for what do we need to have faith? Or maybe we are just too foolish not to be taking advantage of our credentials and our intellectual prowess or all the well-paying career opportunities that flood this world?


Brother, how can you say this? I have hungered. I have been thirsty. Believe me, I have gone an entire week without food – and not because I was fasting (I suppose that it was a “forced” fast). I just plain didn’t have any money! Thanks be to God that He was able to get me through those days! I can recount days in which God took care of me in supernatural ways. I remember receiving money in an unmarked envelope that contained $250 in it – when I had told no one that I didn’t have any food to eat! I remember sitting outside my college dorm as a second year undergraduate student. Due to a clerical aid, my financial aid was on hold and my scholarship money wasn’t going to be available for two months. As a result, I couldn’t use my “meal card” at the school. I prayed until 5 A.M. for an answer from God. I went to my room, went to sleep, and was awakened by a call from the Financial Aid department saying that a strange governmental grant (free money) worth over $2500 appeared in my account – and all I needed to do was go and sign that I accepted it.

I could go on and on with the times that the Lord took care of me. But you know what? I am just as satisfied with the Lord’s provisions when I am NOT in need. In other words, I see my employment opportunities available via my college degrees as a means through which the Lord provides (and I, in turn, can provide for my wife). Regardless, I am content with whatever the Lord provides for me – because my life belongs to Him. I am pleased that He trusts me to provide for my wife.
Quote:

It is also interesting that taking loans and living on credit would have been absurd only a hundred or even fifty years ago in secular countries, let alone in the church. And now, when the apostolic foundations have been blown up completely, and the Word of God has been dethroned, this American phenomenon is spreading like a landslide worldwide, and has even found its "place of honor" in the "Gospel of Jesus Christ."


This isn’t anything new. There were loans in the Old Testament! Even during the Exodus, the people of Israel were not forbidden to borrow or lend. Rather, they were forbidden from charging interest (Exodus 22:25). Proverbs warns against charging exorbitant interest (Proverbs 28:8). Even in the New Testament, we remember the Parable of the Talents. The ruler criticized the unrighteous servant who buried his talent, because the lord told him, “[i] 27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. [/i]” (Matthew 25:27). This is a strange parable coming from our Lord – if He thought that all borrowing and lending was “slavery.”
Quote:

Some preachers are speaking against it even now. Moreover, the Word of God has not changed or evolved; the Lord still speaks through His Word to those who have ears to hear. The biggest deception here is that what you call bondage, others have embraced as liberty. To a man who has never been truly free, the concept of freedom has little meaning. But to those who have found freedom in the Lord, let them not use it too liberally.


Brother, do you not see the danger in proclaiming your opinion about this matter as indisputable? You are dismissing anyone with an opinion different from your own as being in “bondage.” It even seems that you are suggesting that each of those with a different opinion “has never been truly free.” That is something you should be very careful about spreading, dear brother. It seems that you are even questioning the salvation of some simply because they don’t feel that buying a house or services via monthly payments is prohibited by the Scriptures.

Brother, I wonder: How do you pay for your water? How do you pay for your household gas? How do you pay for your electricity? How do you earn a living? How do you pay for Internet service? How do you pay for sanitation services? Are all of these things prepaid in your country? Or are you just as much of the “slave” that you describe as someone who buys a house, car or education via monthly payments? While these things may seem petty, they are purchased in the same type of manner (credit) as a house or car.

Call me a “slave of this world” if you want, but I am a slave of Christ. I will accept all that He provides – including the command to work for the needs of my family.


_________________
Christopher

 2008/6/20 21:12Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3228
Texas

 Re:

All believers are in debt and will always be in debt to Jesus Christ. :-)


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2008/6/20 22:22Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

We were bought for a price. He paid the price for our sin. We were purchased by His blood.

 2008/6/20 22:28Profile









 Re: CREDIT CRUNCH

What a blessing to be able to share thoughts with people who talk about Jesus! Thank you God!
If my thoughts do not please God then may one who has understanding pray that God would grant me to repent. Those who trust in him will not be put to shame.

If those who say that borrowing money and entering into contracts with men are signs of disloyalty - if they are not commanded by the word of God in this regard - then what? Let them not judge the servants of Christ or impose their devotion on all.

And if I am free from restriction in the Lord Jesus to borrow money or to enter into contracts with men regardless of whether those men profess Christ or not then I am free indeed and no man should judge me. But if my brother seeks to glorify God by restraining himself in a matter of personal conscience between him and God and I offend him with my freedom - then what? I would hope to repent - having condemned myself in neglecting to love the servants of Christ.

I don't believe it is a matter of personal inward questioning though. The apostle Paul instructed "do not be planning ahead for the desires of the flesh" and in regard to money - "owe no debt"
The Lord taught not to give thought for these things. He commanded that we observe the birds and how God provides for them. The flowers don't even move except if the wind spreads their fragrance and they are beautifully clothed! How much less do they know calculus.
I deserve to be called least in his kingdom for my disobedience to these and the example it sets for others. I am not worthy to be writing these things for his servants. Please pray that God would grant my heart to be broken in repentance and not to be hardened. That he would give me a heart like Jesus.

I am in debt myself because of my own stupid anxiety! I know that the debt is not the issue as much as my lack of faith. The widow that Elisha visited was about to lose her children because of the debt of her husband. God provided for them abundantly - If God can save us from the trouble we get ourselves into then he can be trusted to provide for us so that we don't get into trouble in the first place!

A wise man is strong, Yes, a man of knowledge increases strength; For by wise counsel you will wage your own war, And in a multitude of counselors there is safety. Wisdom is too lofty for a fool; He does not open his mouth in the gate.
Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors there is safety

Without counsel, plans go awry, But in the multitude of counselors they are established.

Your testimonies also are my delight And my counselors.

I see the heart of the Lord pleasing his Father greatly in psalm 119 and it is the heart that I should have.

What about those called Amish? Does anyone know people who love Jesus and live like that? Do they do any evangelism? Maybe that's a topic for a new thread?

 2008/6/20 22:41
cnyusa
Member



Joined: 2008/6/20
Posts: 2


 Re:

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:

I just think that we should commend those who strive to live without owing money to anyone, but we should refrain from judging those who do as “slaves.” Why? Because I think that many of those same people owe money in the little things (rent, services, etc…). If we want to call someone a slave, then we should be readily able to point the finger to the man in the mirror and say the same…if the shoe fits.



Doesn't Proverbs call us "slaves" if we are borrowers?? That is not judging, maybe uncomfortable, but not judging.
As far as service industry, how do you know what you owe until the service has been provided, so I don't know that utilities and such qualify as debt. Certainly if you don't pay them they do. But isn't that the only way to "Buy" those things? It seems like that argument is a stretch. And as far as rent, don't most landlords get paid for the month to come plus have a months security on top of that. (So they actually owe the renter). But cars, education, all kinds of things in our culture can be bought outright with patience and cash.
A few years back when my wife and I did look at buying a house and we decided against it. I called my realtor and said "We have decided not to buy a house because I'm not comfortable borrowing the money for it." There was a silence on the other end of the phone for a while. Then she finally said with confusion "But that's the American way?!" I think we have really bought into the culture and this credit issue in America is coming crashing down and it's already hurting many believers who have been told that borrowing is just a part of life.
Anyway, I just want to really encourage others to consider those scriptures and consider paying off all you can. Praise God!

 2008/6/20 23:33Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Rev. 13:16-18
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: [17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. [18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


The question comes to mind, will what you have now, in earthly possessions, keep you in Christ Jesus or cause you to fall away when the day of decision arrives?

http://artkatzministries.org/decade-of-the-nineties-1-of-3/

This 3 part series is a must listen for all who are looking at the issue of earthly possessions
and the addiction to credit.

 2008/6/21 0:19Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Great conversation, but not a salvation issue. To make it one, in any degree, is minimizing the price that Christ paid.

Any decision about loans should be made with much praying and seeking His guidance. He will always lead us in the right direction.


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/6/21 0:20Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi NotMe…
Quote:

I can say the same with you: I took loans to go to college, which I am now paying back--and there is a long way to go. At least the Lord delivered me in time: I quit after my third year seeing the insanity I was becoming a part of. On one hand, I am glad I finally left that path; however, I am saddened that it took me so long to realize what bondage this was--especially mentally--to live my life by such principles, which had nothing in common with the Christian faith I saw in the Word.


What are you implying? Are you implying that you should not have gone to college and earned a degree – or that you should not have taken student loans? What is the “bondage” that you are speaking of that you insist had “nothing in common with the Christian faith” that you saw in the Word?

I went to college on several scholarships after graduating from a public high school. I went on to earn two undergraduate degrees and a graduate degree. I am currently finishing my doctoral dissertation. I don’t believe that I am a slave to any of these things – because I count them as dung when COMPARED to the things of God. My wife has earned a BS and a MA. Although she received several academic scholarships, she did use government guaranteed Stafford loans to pay for some of her education. However, those loans have paid off.

A college degree can open up doors of employment opportunity that cannot be opened without a degree. For instance, you can NEVER teach in an accredited school without a college degree. You could never become a doctor without a degree. You could never become an Engineer or Scientist without a college degree. If you look through the HELP WANTED section of a newspaper or through online job websites, you will notice that a great many of these require an educational background (whether a high school diploma, training or a college degree). People with degrees are paid more for less hours of work. This allows a man to provide more adequately for his family as he is commanded by the Word of God. It also allows such a man to spend more time with his family too.

I have read several posts over the years in which the poster claims that a college degree (or a degree at a “secular” college) is ungodly or unscriptural. Personally, I just don’t believe the judgment upon which such an opinion (that is usually shared without an indication that it is, after all, an opinion) is based.
Quote:

You are taught to press on, to be strong, to always have your back covered. You are never put on your knees because you always muscle through everything. And if the Lord shows you mercy to put you to open shame and bring you to your knees, you are still taught to fight on and resist Him--"because through Christ you can do ALL things," even those contrary to the will of God. See how dangerous this is? But thank God He broke through that self-righteousness and showed me the idolatry and self-reliance in me. And how many a Christian is running down that same path... without raising a question. It is the trodden path and many walk in it, so why bother ask?


Brother, are you speaking of yourself here? Because this was NOT my experience. If anything, my college education and the affairs of this life have taught me to follow ever more closely after the things of God. I was never in danger of “losing my faith” while attending college or working a “secular” job. If such a thing is a problem, then the problem is not [u]college[/u] or a “secular” job; the problem is the result of a feeble relationship with Christ. I can stand in a college classroom and not only survive – but stand as a light. The same is true regardless of circumstance – at my “secular” job or in the grocery store. We need men and women, boys and girls who can walk with Jesus regardless of the lies of this world.
Quote:

"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law." Romans 13:8

"The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower becomes the lender's slave." Proverbs 22:7
________________________________________


Such verses have become inapplicable in modern-day conditions. This is what many will say, decrying the clear teaching of the Word of God in order to save themselves some embarrassment. And such are no offense to this present world. To them the world will give praise and honor; they will never be considered a thorn in its flesh; for the world hears them and applauds them--for in them every good and self-righteous soulish quality is embodied. They have avoided the offense of the Cross of Christ!


Brother, no one is saying that these verses are “inapplicable in modern-day conditions.” And I don’t know anyone who is attempting to “save themselves some embarrassment” by acknowledging the possible acceptability of buying a home or car (or education, or Internet service, or phone service, or electricity, or rent, etc…) via monthly payments. But don’t you think that you are being a little, uh, melodramatic by claiming that such individuals are “self-righteous” and looking for the “applause” of the world? Are you claiming that anyone who earns a degree, purchases a home via monthly payments, etc… – has attempted to “avoid the offense of the Cross of Christ?” If this is what you’re trying to declare, then I have to admit that I find it just plain SILLY.
Quote:

These are those who teach you to get a degree, to get loans, insurance, and all that stuff, to secure your life--so you avoid hardship and persecution in this present age.

Huh?!? Where did you get such nonsense? We aren’t trying to avoid persecution! Speaking for myself, I want to be able to provide for my family more adequately. Scoff all you want, but a college degree can open the door to a better opportunity to fulfill God’s call for a man to provide for his family. If you don’t get a degree, you still must find a trade. You have to educate yourself to be a fisherman, a carpenter, a mechanic, etc… This isn’t to “[i]avoid hardship and persecution[/i].” It is to simply provide for ourselves and our families and not be a burden to someone else.
Quote:
These are the "judaizers" who want to make a boast in their flesh. I am not advocating laziness or irresponsibility here. But this is another spirit which has infiltrated modern churches. There is no totality to that "Christian" life, but balance. There is no persecution, but compromise. There is no love, but tolerance. There is no self-denial, but self-establishment. There are no clear-cut commandments of God, but flexible philosophies of men. And all that under the Christian banner.


Brother, you need to slow down. You are now calling those with who you disagree, “judaizers.” Do you think that it is wrong to provide for your family? Do you think that it is wrong to work with your own hands? This is what we are espousing. A college degree can provide an opportunity. A recent study by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in the United States revealed that the average college degree earns individuals more than twice the income of the average high school graduate (who, in turn, earns more than a high school dropout). It is not a sin to provide more adequately for your family. In fact, it IS a sin if you do not (I Timothy 5:8).
Quote:

I think we haven't learned to trust God for our needs. We'd rather go ahead and ask our neighbor, or parents, or the bank, or the government, when we are running out of steam. We have learned to go to God as a last measure, if everything else fails us. This doesn't mean that we should wait and do nothing (say, go to a restaurant for dinner with empty pockets and hope that we get a "free meal"). But all ways of provision that God has not approved and all means which He hasn't given should be out of the question. Yes, this may leave us empty-handed, but "will the Son of Man find faith on the earth when He returns?"


Interesting. I think that you can be right in this. However, sometimes instead of “running out of steam” (as you say), we might remember the story of Elijah running out of “[i]STREAM[/i].” Remember how he depended upon the Lord to provide for him via ravens and a brook? This was fine for Elijah for awhile. But Elijah became used to the idea of God providing for him (with no effort or work on Elijah’s part). Elijah may have enjoyed his little Ravine for years – but the brook dried up. At this point, God spoke to Elijah to move out of the Ravine and go to a poor widow woman’s house (and we know the story from there).

Today, we have many believers who depend upon God for everything. And why shouldn’t we? Our God is Jehovah Jireh – the LORD our Provider! God could turn rocks into bread for us if He wanted. He could bring fruit out of the ground and allow our oil to never run out. But we aren’t in Eden anymore. We are commanded by God to work with our hands and to provide for our families. All of the great men of God in the New Testament had a trade. They were not lazy men or “career” preachers who depended upon working believers to provide for all of their needs all of the time. Peter, James and John were fishermen. Paul was a Pharisee and a tentmaker. Luke was a physician. I am sure that their careers and very lives were at the disposal of God. Are we any different? Although I have earned several degrees – they are easily at the disposal of God! I would lay them down for Him in an instant! In fact, they are nothing to me compared with my relationship with Jesus!
Quote:

Only a man who has no other alternative but complete dependence on God for his daily bread knows what I am talking about. For so long as we get certain support from here and there--whether it is a barn or a bank account, which we can always resort to--for what do we need to have faith? Or maybe we are just too foolish not to be taking advantage of our credentials and our intellectual prowess or all the well-paying career opportunities that flood this world?


Brother, how can you say this? I have hungered. I have been thirsty. Believe me, I have gone an entire week without food – and not because I was fasting (I suppose that it was a “forced” fast). I just plain didn’t have any money! Thanks be to God that He was able to get me through those days! I can recount days in which God took care of me in supernatural ways. I remember receiving money in an unmarked envelope that contained $250 in it – when I had told no one that I didn’t have any food to eat! I remember sitting outside my college dorm as a second year undergraduate student. Due to a clerical aid, my financial aid was on hold and my scholarship money wasn’t going to be available for two months. As a result, I couldn’t use my “meal card” at the school. I prayed until 5 A.M. for an answer from God. I went to my room, went to sleep, and was awakened by a call from the Financial Aid department saying that a strange governmental grant (free money) worth over $2500 appeared in my account – and all I needed to do was go and sign that I accepted it.

I could go on and on with the times that the Lord took care of me. But you know what? I am just as satisfied with the Lord’s provisions when I am NOT in need. In other words, I see my employment opportunities available via my college degrees as a means through which the Lord provides (and I, in turn, can provide for my wife). Regardless, I am content with whatever the Lord provides for me – because my life belongs to Him. I am pleased that He trusts me to provide for my wife.
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It is also interesting that taking loans and living on credit would have been absurd only a hundred or even fifty years ago in secular countries, let alone in the church. And now, when the apostolic foundations have been blown up completely, and the Word of God has been dethroned, this American phenomenon is spreading like a landslide worldwide, and has even found its "place of honor" in the "Gospel of Jesus Christ."


This isn’t anything new. There were loans in the Old Testament! Even during the Exodus, the people of Israel were not forbidden to borrow or lend. Rather, they were forbidden from charging interest (Exodus 22:25). Proverbs warns against charging exorbitant interest (Proverbs 28:8). Even in the New Testament, we remember the Parable of the Talents. The ruler criticized the unrighteous servant who buried his talent, because the lord told him, “[i] 27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. [/i]” (Matthew 25:27). This is a strange parable coming from our Lord – if He thought that all borrowing and lending was “slavery.”
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Some preachers are speaking against it even now. Moreover, the Word of God has not changed or evolved; the Lord still speaks through His Word to those who have ears to hear. The biggest deception here is that what you call bondage, others have embraced as liberty. To a man who has never been truly free, the concept of freedom has little meaning. But to those who have found freedom in the Lord, let them not use it too liberally.


Brother, do you not see the danger in proclaiming your opinion about this matter as indisputable? You are dismissing anyone with an opinion different from your own as being in “bondage.” It even seems that you are suggesting that each of those with a different opinion “has never been truly free.” That is something you should be very careful about spreading, dear brother. It seems that you are even questioning the salvation of some simply because they don’t feel that buying a house or services via monthly payments is prohibited by the Scriptures.

Brother, I wonder: How do you pay for your water? How do you pay for your household gas? How do you pay for your electricity? How do you earn a living? How do you pay for Internet service? How do you pay for sanitation services? Are all of these things prepaid in your country? Or are you just as much of the “slave” that you describe as someone who buys a house, car or education via monthly payments? While these things may seem petty, they are purchased in the same type of manner (credit) as a house or car.

Call me a “slave of this world” if you want, but I am a slave of Christ. I will accept all that He provides – including the command to work for the needs of my family.




Most excellent points Chris!

 2008/6/21 0:34Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

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Great conversation, but not a salvation issue.



Oh but it is! He saves us from all bondage if we but trust and obey.

 2008/6/21 0:39Profile





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