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Discussion Forum : General Topics : CREDIT CRUNCH

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 Re:

I think it's best not to go in debt at all. When we bought our home we made sure that the payments were low enough that we could survive on my husband's income alone. Anything I make is over and above.

 2008/6/19 19:14









 Re:

Quote:

Rebecca_LF wrote:
I think it's best not to go in debt at all. When we bought our home we made sure that the payments were low enough that we could survive on my husband's income alone. Anything I make is over and above.



This includes all of our bills. If things get really bad in the public school system than I can quit work easily.

 2008/6/19 19:17









 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
But when you rent an apartment and sign a lease, aren't you essentially doing the same thing as taking a loan? For the only way to get out of the lease is to pay the rest of what you owe for the year, or get somebody else to rent out your apartment.



When you rent an apartment you pre-pay the succeeding period, usually one month. In Bulgaria, they even want you to pay for 1+1 months before you move in. So in case you move out without paying your bills, they have some sort of protection. Therefore, you don't pay money you don't have. When you can't afford to pay, you get kicked out or don't rent at all. Of course, it is stressful because you need to pay the rent every month (or week), but you are not obligated by contract to pay it for more than one period. So basically you can move out at any time, having informed the owner. True, you don't expect to come into possession of the apartment. Living in it doesn't make it yours. With the mortgage though you have something to lose, while renting an apartment is not as binding.

I believe that such questions continue to bother us because we are more or less dependent on--and haven't yet parted with--the world. We live in cities. Our ideas of church and community and living have been shaped by city life with its whole set of values. A Christian is not meant to live alone or in isolation. Moreover, if I were a Christian parent, sending my children away for school or better employment would be unthinkable. They will stay in the Christian community (if they so choose). Then they won't need to rent a house or get a loan to buy one. But we have been scattered among the gentiles; we have learned to live as individuals; we have been deceived. We've been taught to think that we live in Christian countries because the Government says so; because everybody has been baptized as an infant and has circled "I consider myself to be a Christian" in some form... There are so many internal and external factors that keep us from being the spotless bride of Christ.

 2008/6/19 19:40
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:


Rebecca_LF wrote:

Quote:


If things get really bad in the public school system...




I think that time is here sister.


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/6/19 19:41Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


In Bulgaria, they even want you to pay for 1+1 months before you move in. So in case you move out without paying your bills, they have some sort of protection.


Indeed, here we are paying for next month as well. But when we sign a lease to rent an apartment, it is for a term (usually 6 months or 1 year). To get out of that lease, one either has to pay the rest of the rent for the remainder of the lease, or whatever penalities stipulated in the lease agreement. You are not simply free to go whenever you decide you want to.


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Jimmy H

 2008/6/19 19:49Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Also, in the long run, is it not better to pay a fixed rate loan, where the amount one pays is the same every month for the life of the loan, than to pay rent every month, where the rate will (generally speaking) increase every year or two?


_________________
Jimmy H

 2008/6/19 19:51Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4496


 Re:

Hi Tears_of_Joy...

Quote:
This is a modern day slavery. Taking those money automaticly you are becoming slave. Slave to everything, mainly to the banks and the system, but not slave to God. Slave living in a constant fear. This is everything, but not the life that the Lord called us.



Isn't this going a little [i]extreme[/i]?

Are you saying that anyone who owes any money for anything is a [i]slave[/i] to this world?

Look -- if you go into a restaurant or a drive thru window at a Kentucky Fried Chicken, you can order anything that you want. However, you have to have enough money to pay for it before you leave. If you have enough money to pay for it, you aren't a "slave" to the fried chicken, the restaurant or the world's banking system. It is just a means to pay for the meal.

If you own a construction company (or any other business), you are exchanging their work for money. Typically, workers are paid AFTER they finish a 40+ hour work week. In other words, you OWE them money because they worked a certain number of hours for you. The vice versa is also true. If you work for a company, that company is indebted to you according to the amount of hours that you worked. If you worked 40 hours that week, then the company is required to pay you for those 40 hours.

The same can be said for various services that we partake of. If you have a phone, internet service, electricity or water at your home -- you are "borrowing" those things until you pay for them (usually at the end of a month). Should I cut those services off because I am effectively "borrowing" for them?

If you were to call 9-1-1 in an emergency, the ambulance will come, pick you up, take you to the hospital, apply medical care, monitor your health, and then send you home with a HUGE bill. You are now in debt (unless you have adequate health insurance or government health assistance like Medicare/Medicaid). The bottom line is that most of us are in debt -- but we only consider indebtedness in the big things.

If I buy a home via a 20 or 30 year payment plan, I own the home. While this is considered a [i]loan[/i] by the bank, it is actually a means to purchase a home via monthly payments. Few of us could afford a $250,000 home (the national average) via cash. Few of us could afford a $25,000 vehicle (or even a $2500 vehicle) via cash. However, a credit company will allow us to pay for such an item via monthly payments. Sure, the reason they do this is because they make money off of the interest rate. But is it a sin to own a house or car through such a means?

If I purchase a house through a 30 year mortgage plan, I will own that home IMMEDIATELY. I am responsible for the property taxes (and not the bank, former owner, contracter, etc...). I can SELL the house and even make a profit from it. The "home loan" is literally a means via a person can own a home by making monthly payments. It is the equivalent to renting the house until it is entirely paid for (with interest). It is like a lay-away plan in which you can own the item immediately -- before it is entirely paid for. In most circumstances, it is cheaper to make a house payment than it is to rent a house.

I think that the implication of [i]slavery[/i] is going a bit far. Why? Because a person can walk away from the house at any time. They can sell it, refinance it, or even mortgage it. If your house or car was to be repossessed (due to lack of payment), then you would only "owe" the difference between what you paid toward the principle and what it was resold for. In many cases, the difference is advantageous to the bank or credit company (which is why they repossess it in the first place)!

This is very different than a person who borrows money for no apparent reason...or a person who achieves bad credit via credit cards. Many times, a person will "buy" things via credit for which they do not have an adequate means to repay. This is true indebtedness.

I do believe in living a "debt free" life. Like I stated earlier, I believe that a person -- even in the United States -- can afford to build a home without borrowing a dime. However, it is difficult to do such a thing in every area of our lives. Most of us are forced to make payments on one thing or another. The difference is whether or not we are willing to continue working in order to pay for those things.

Some good advice is to put off as many purchases as possible until you have the means to pay for it with cash. If you can pay for it BEFOREHAND, it is much better than paying for it over a long period of time. If you are forced to make payments, make sure that you continue to make those payments.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/6/19 19:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
But when we sign a lease to rent an apartment, it is for a term (usually 6 months or 1 year). To get out of that lease, one either has to pay the rest of the rent for the remainder of the lease, or whatever penalities stipulated in the lease agreement. You are not simply free to go whenever you decide you want to.



This is horrible. They have started doing the same with cell phones here. You need to sign a one- or two-year contract. And if you don't like the service or don't need it any longer, you'll need to pay all fees for the remaining period before you can quit.

Now if you do have the money for the whole period, I don't see a problem with that. Anything else, however, would be "playing with fire."

 2008/6/19 19:56
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Just thinking out loud: In a sense, when you buy something by taking a loan, you technically own it while you make payments on it. However, if you are unable to continue to make payments on it, the item is seized in order to satisfy the remainder of the payments needed. So, instead of the bank being satisfied by receiving its money in full 30 years from now, should you default it seeks to be satisfied instantly. Either way, the bank is satisfied, whether now or later. For when you take a loan from the bank, they loan you money against the value of the house. The house you own simply is the security for the loan you are given.

To me, it seems, the lack of wisdom would be in the taking of an unsecured loan (credit cards), whereby no surety can be made towards the lender that you will be able to repay. For the in case you default on your home loan, you are able to pay in full by means of your home. Whereas with a credit card, you are up the creek without a paddle.


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Jimmy H

 2008/6/19 20:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
Also, in the long run, is it not better to pay a fixed rate loan, where the amount one pays is the same every month for the life of the loan, than to pay rent every month, where the rate will (generally speaking) increase every year or two?



The question here is not about what is more practical or better [i]for us[/i] in the long run, but what is pleasing to the Lord. If we do not trust in God for our all--but go to people or banks or the government (for temporary peace and security)--then we are veering into idolatry and provoking His righteous anger. Is God our rock, our refuge, our salvation? Then why call upon any other names...

Slavyan

 2008/6/19 20:06





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