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 Re: Cleansed of sin; or cleansed of our Satanic nature. "Who willdeliver me from this "body of death




Theopenlife: An outstanding and discerning article that presents a clear division in this controversy! I agree with you absolutely.


I cannot understand [i]why[/i] mature Christians[ seemingly] fall into this trap, as it is so obvious in the Word, that we do have a sinful nature, that is the root of our sin! We inherited it, were born with it, have it now, and will until redemption. If our Satanic Adam Natures were forgiven, upon the moment we believed, and were born again, then we would be perfect, and as the Angels. We would no longer need to obey, or die to ourselves, or hate our lives in any way. We would be sanctified.

There is no human except ONE who had no Adam Nature, or Satanic nature. He was sinless, sanctified. It His His path we must follow to the Throne, for it is ordained that ALL men must die, and then the judgement. He became our judgement. "Father, Father, Why have you forsaken me?"......."And the Lord laid upon Him, the INIQUITY of us all."



.. "IF" by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh. These deeds are inward and outward! Which of you that hold to the Sanctified purity of your exalted attainment has not had an iota of desire or lust, or pride [gosh, I'm good looking].


If you do not, or have been deceived or lulled into thinking you don't have to die to these fruits of Adam within, then the result will be that you have chosen to be conformed to the image of yourself. " He who SAVES his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my Sake, will find it unto life eternal. This is not about martyrdom, but living a crucified life in order that His life would dominate yours.....hereby... Christlike.

There is a doctrine that Jesus taught, and that of bearing our own cross, and following himself. Paul used "mortification" the Old English KJV archaic for "inflicting death upon". You mortify a chicken before dinner. We must allow the Holy Spirit to mortify our Pride and Ambition, the roots of lust within; the honoring of the I will over the honoring of the Great I Am....Jesus.



The question then becomes not one of outward obedience, but of inward conformation. The goal of a child of God, God's goal Himself, is that we would be conformed to the exact living image of His Son, Jesus. These are the Sons of God. It is not the initial receiving that makes us a son or daughter, this is but the Seed, but the ultimate end to attain Him; to be conformed unto Him in reality, to love as He does, now.


I dislike the word "flesh", as used in the context of our evil. inherit natures, as it can connitate the perception of "the body". It is not the body, or the passions of the body alone[though sometimes included] . It is Evil itself in the form of ME; I WILL

Tozer put it this way, as preaching to a crowd of preachers...."You are the FLESH!" I am the flesh, and I must die, that he could live .


I am crucified with Christ, never the less, I live, yet not I , bur Christ who lives in ME!.........Will we let Him live?


John the Babtist understood this first, and it was stated by our Lord that none greater arose on Earth born of a woman, than he.....John said so simply about this; ..."He must increase, and I must decrease."

 2008/6/14 8:38
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Let's do some clarifying first. You are occasionaly introducing this straw man who confesses Christ while living in willful sin. I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I should hope no one here is arguing for that terrible 'bend the knee-sin for free' religion that has infected so many people. I think we can let that particular straw man go.



Thanks for including this MC. I would also like to state that I hope no one is thinking that the folks on this thread that see themselves as sinners are advocating intentional or premeditated sin. Some of the most Godly and consecrated people I have known would never think of identifying themselves as anything more than a sinner saved by grace.

Grace and peace


_________________
TJ

 2008/6/14 9:49Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings

I wanted to say thank you for posting and sharing what you did, theopenlife. I agree completely with what you shared. Also wanted to say thank you to Brothertom for your words that you shared with me as well. God Bless you both.

MJ

 2008/6/14 12:32Profile
bonni
Member



Joined: 2005/8/9
Posts: 100
montana usa

 Re:

The openlife quoted




"Paul teaches that the old nature beside which Christ's life is imparted is to be "reckoned" dead. He does not say it is "dead" in the strict sense of being annihilated and having no more influence whatsoever, but rather "reckoned dead" in that we consider it as beaten; inferior to the new and living power that works in us. The victory of Christ's indwelling is to the old nature as a decisive battle, irrevocably turning the tides of war, though not at once ending the war. Christ in us is the beginning of the end of intentional sin."





This is very good, it reminds me of the history of Israel in the book of Esther when the king sealed the decree that the Jews would be attacked and destroyed (symbol of the judgement of the sin nature)

Later the king "added" to the decree, notice that he did not destroy the old but added to it that the Jews could fight back. The Jews were also given weapons to fight with to overcome the attackers (symbol of the Holy Spirit fighting against our sinful nature)


blessings, bonni




_________________
Bonni

 2008/6/14 18:24Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

It is encouraging to see all these beautiful responses!

As some 10,000+ divisions in "denominational doctrines" has proved, it is very easy for "us inquiring minds" to be challenged with one teaching that "leans to the side" (in its incomplete brevity) and flee to an "opposite extreme"! Then others see this extreme and flee to the exact opposite of that extreme! It is craziness!

This here is just beautiful; I see these responses coming along and lining up in order with all truth!

Quote:
Brother I believe our two views are not crossing one another but aligned perfectly. Yes, they are like two tape measures stretched out in the same direction, but they are of different lengths as one takes additional ground into consideration. In other words, I agree with everthing you are saying, and am replying 'yes, but the guilt of man requires more then a commitment to live without known sin. There must be a perfect reckoning, a complete atonment, and this is only possible because of the cross.



I like you :)
I will look forward to more conversing.
Do enjoy your time with your family, in the Lord!

Quote:
if, and only if, the man recognizes the temptation and seeks his deliverance by Christ's power.



Note: "taking the shield of faith with which [b]you will be able to quench[/b] all the fiery darts of the wicked one."

We are bid to be alert and diligent. Just having the "shield of faith" isn't enough to defend yourself, it must be used and applied effectively.

Quote:
They saw themselves as already righteous and wise, and could not recognize Christ's ministry, authority , and indentity. As a result he was going to let them remain guilty in their self-righteousness. As you know, the Gospel is resisted or missed by those who already feel righteous based on their own self-evaluation.



Actually this isn't correct: "could not recognize Christ's ministry, authority , and indentity". Do you recall, "there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."

Perhaps, they weren't ready to accept Him as the Christ. But this wasn't one Pharisee's opinion, either, "WE KNOW THAT YOU have come from God ..."

I am often baffled by this idea of "not recognizing sin". Perhaps, we are simply getting sin confused with trying to figure out what we ought to be doing in the natural world (is it God's will that I cook chicken or steak for dinner? Or, should I be a missionary to *place*? Or, what should the structure of "the church" be? etc.) and not understanding that the sin we are (at least I am) talking about, is the motives and intentions of the heart in all things we do. Hence, the distinction between "ignorance" and "deceiving one's self". There is very, very little ignorance which man can honestly claim in this respect. Just as there is a huge difference between: [b]a)[/b] not seeing something as the sin it is because you aren't looking for Christ to be glorified,

and [b]b)[/b] working out your salvation, with fear and trepidation, in the sight of God. For these, we read, [b]Romans 8:28[/b], "we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

They may stumble, they may miss the mark, yet, [b]Proverbs 3:6[/b], "In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight."

Which is why I thought that "Starbucks" example was good. It took away that layer of "natural stuff" and looked in to the heart of it all, the "Why". A good example of acknowledging Him in all of your ways, too. Eh? :-P

Quote:
But this does not even touch the sins which are done unintentionally and obliviously, or suddenly out of neglect to show diligent care, or through gross unfamiliarity with the scriptures.



The true test of what is in our heart, is when, "suddenly out of neglect to show diligent care" ... *fill in the blank* ... and Jesus came and said, "Are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour?"

Just as the parable of the metalsmith, as to purifying gold or silver. When the heat, pressure, is applied the impurities will comeforth to the surface. Shall we curse ourselves because of the Lord's masterful work in us?

"Ah! I am being refined by Fire and all I see is the muck and the mire coming to the forefront of my heart! All I see is sin in my life!" Isn't this the way purifying begins?

Hm, think about it.

But far worse still: Through gross unfamiliarity with the Living Word.

I ask you, sir, where did David get his Psalms? Where did Job get his schooling? Where did Solomon gain his wisdom and Samson his strength?

Not from Scripture, though it does indeed testify of the Word, it will never substitute for familiarity with the Living Word ([b]John 5:39[/b]).

Even a man who has the entire Bible memorized, even analyzed and comprehensively studied, is no closer to Spirit and Truth than an unlearned fisherman. We would all do well to consider this.

I sometimes wonder if our zealous analyzing of Scripture often becomes the very "letter" that kills our faith. This again, goes back to the motive and intent of the heart. Are we trying to build up a "Tower of Bible"? We certainly have enough confusion in our doctrines to prove so! Or, is God giving the interpretation according to the riches of glory in Christ Jesus; the Spirit of our faith?

Quote:
Consider that Paul refers to these members not as physical appendages, such as hands or eyes, but as lusts and sinful impulses which are properly called our own. They are distinct from the world and from the devil; they are the remaining drives and corruptions not yet banished from believers. We are now freed from their dominion and guilt. Our calling is to subdue and mortify these fleshly desires.



Well said, well said.

It is interesting to consider this truth as Paul speaks of these corrupted desires.

[b]2 Corinthians 5[/b]
1. For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3. inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, [b]because we do not want to be unclothed [u]but to be clothed[/u][/b], so that what is [b]mortal will be swallowed up by life[/b].

This imagery of being found "naked" immediately takes us back to Adam and Eve. I used to have this impression; that I needed to have my desires and impulses taken out of me before God could make me clean. Rather the opposite is true! My God given desire and impulse is found naked in open shame for its "unnatural affections". What I need is not to be made void of personality but for my "nakedness" to be clothed, swallowed up, in Life; where there is boldness of purity in the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
The brother making this claim was, to all appearances, completely serious and no novice. I asked him to clarify what he meant by "had not sinned". He emphatically asserted that he had not sinned in thought, word, deed, or intention for the whole of six months.



I purposely saved this comment for last :P

We would all do well to have very high expectations of faith, yet let us not consider ourselves more than we ought to, "but our adequacy is from God" ([b]2 Corinthians 3:5[/b]).

According to the Law of ordinances I could likely also make this same claim. I wouldn't say it was a "fool-proof" claim but certainly evidential.

However, according to the Law of Christ Jesus I would be a liar. Let every man be a liar. Your friend was likely speaking of "the sin which does so easily beset us" and not the First and Greatest Commandment and the Second Greatest Commandment which is like unto the First. Let us set these Two Commandments as the Spirit of our faith, unto the full measure of the stature of Christ Jesus; rather than this pitiful measure of "not committing sin" as at other times.

It is one thing to "turn from your wicked ways" and by far another to "seek God's Face" ([b]2 Chronicles 7:14[/b]).

1 Corinthians 4
18. Now some have become arrogant, as though I were not coming to you.
19. But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, [b]not the words of those who are arrogant but their power[/b].
20. For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

And this power is [i]dynamis[/i] (Strong's 1411)

[b]1)[/b] strength power, ability
a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
b) power for performing miracles
c) moral power and excellence of soul
d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
e) power and resources arising from numbers
f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts

This is no simple, "I haven't committed sin", power either. Let the glory of the Lord be our Judge.

Goodness, are we not all on a website devoted to Revival and expectations of wonderous exploits of God's lovingkindness displayed openly in dynamic miracle power?

Ah, but we say "I have not sinned in thought, word, deed, or intention for" - length of time. Then tell me, in that length of time what miracles were done by your hands? What power was manifest to confirm your words? How many heathens were converted to the Lord in that time; not by persuasive words of wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power; so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God; so that the cross of Christ would not be made void?

Or, do we not know ...
[b]2 Chronicles 16:9[/b]
For the eyes of the LORD move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is pure towards Him.

If we say, we are strongly desiring God to show Himself strong in these evil days; and God says, He is desiring to show Himself strong in these evil days ...

Judges 6:13
"[...] if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, `Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us [...]"

Hm?

Surely, if anyone's heart is pure, it is the one who has "not sinned in thought, word, deed, or intention" - for length of time. Correct? Or, perhaps this is a pure heart that is not towards God. (That would be an oxymoron.) What is the purpose of denying one's self and taking up your cross and following Jesus; if you aren't going to be His disciple?

Quote:
He who SAVES his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my Sake, will find it unto life eternal. This is not about martyrdom, but living a crucified life in order that His life would dominate yours.....hereby... Christlike.



Very nice. If we say we are willing to die for His Name sake, then we ought to be wholly living for His Name sake; as though we had already died. To live in the same manner in which Christ died. Thank you Lord for being patient (long-suffering) with us.

Quote:
The question then becomes not one of outward obedience, but of inward conformation. The goal of a child of God, God's goal Himself, is that we would be conformed to the exact living image of His Son, Jesus. These are the Sons of God. It is not the initial receiving that makes us a son or daughter, this is but the Seed, but the ultimate end to attain Him; to be conformed unto Him in reality, to love as He does, now.



Beautiful! [b]John 7:38[/b], "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, `From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' "

You know, it is quite remarkable the way God works. When He told Moses, "Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them." The very first thing God required the people to make was, "They shall construct an ark [...]"

Why?

[b]Exodus 25[/b]
21. "You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony which I will give to you.
22. "[b]There I will meet with you[/b] [...]"

He began first with the innermost and most important piece of furniture. Is it no different today, when we are born-again? But, alas, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!"

Thus, our Lord bid the disciples to tarry until they were undued, clothed (there is that imagery again), with power from on high. Only then would they be made witnesses of Christ Jesus unto the world.

Quote:
Tozer put it this way, as preaching to a crowd of preachers...."You are the FLESH!" I am the flesh, and I must die, that he could live.



I love Tozer! What sermon was this, that I might hear it?

Quote:
John the Babtist understood this first, and it was stated by our Lord that none greater arose on Earth born of a woman, than he.....John said so simply about this; ..."He must increase, and I must decrease."



Is it not also true: When He increases, I increase in Him? The proud exalt themselves, but God Himself exalts the humble!

I must decrease from the way that seems right to me and increase in The Way, The Truth, and The Life.

[b]Matthew 11:11[/b]
"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! [b]Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he[/b]."

How poorly we compare to one, John the Baptist, who Jesus declares is less than even the least in Christ's kingdom! Lord, give us Pentecost!


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/14 18:49Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi all,

I don't have anything to add here. I just wanted to note after returning from my time away I took time to review everyone's thoughtful posts.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/6/23 20:10Profile





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