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Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Logic,

I must say I appreciate the detail you put into your responses. Whatever disagreements we might have, I think you are being serious and not flippant in your posture.

Also, thanks for clarifying any area that you feel I was taking away something that you did not imply. I really dislike straw-men in earnest discussions between Christians, especially the ones I prop up!

In the end, I do feel I understand where you are coming from much better. While I appreciate what you are saying about pure intentions, I still feel, based on scripture, that sin is more objective then my awareness of it. Guilt is more then intention to me, because I feel God holds man accountable. Indeed, isn't this the problem with self-righteousness? If you ask a liberal environmentalist he feels he is morally superior to the conservative businessman. The blue collar worker feels morally superior to his white collar manager...and so on.

I think Christinyou sums this up for me:

Quote:
Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all.



Obviously this is true among human governments, which are not always just. How much more true would this be in God's government, who is perfectly just!

For what it is worth, I have the same disagreement here that I have with Finney's theology, though I am not assuming you and he are the saying exactly the same thing. My experience, and I believe scriptures testimony, is that while man must strive to practice a clean conscience, this conscience is simply too subjective and easily corruptible to be the rule of measurement for what is and isn't sin. Again in a human court of law, a man who thinks he did nothing wrong, can be found guilty of a law he did not know or understand and suffer the full punishment for his transgression. I believe it is more so with God, which is why he sent more then a perfect example, but a perfect substitution to atone for my sin.

I imagine substitution is off the table as far you are concerned, so I don't want to belabor this discussion any further.

Thank you Logic for your detailed answers to my questions and comments.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/6/12 18:30Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Brothertom wrote:

We all have a sinful nature.

that is where you are getting in trouble.
To call the nature of man by his fruit is not correct.
Our natuer comes from what we are, which is human, and that is to grow and bear fruit.

Just as a trees nature. What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a nature of a plant, [b]not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.[/b]
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant, it will always have a plant nature no matter what kind of fruit it bears.

However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as this analogy shows:
[b]John 15:4b[/b] [color=990000]...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:16b[/b] [color=990000]...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:24[/b] [color=990000]For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...[/color]

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.
The term "sin nature" is as ridiculous as "apple nature", or "banana nature".

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

Quote:
Paul cried; "Oh wretched man that I AM, who will deliver me from this body of death!.


Paul wrote this after he mais a dialectic of the unregenerated man; [b]Rom 7:5[/b] [color=990000]When we were in the flesh[/color] (not walking after the Spirit)[color=990000], our sympathy for our unlawful effections animated our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[/color]

Quote:
This was the Adam nature, that he inherited in the womb, that is the "me" nature.

Lets stay with in christian theology, please.
There is no scriptural reference or implication of an "Adam nature"

Quote:
[if we forsake them and confess them.] but not our natures.

True, our natures are the same, which is to grow and to bear fruit, but now the fruit is unto righteousness instead of sin.

Quote:
They will battle us until the end. "Who will deliver me from this body of death!"

This is because we still have this week flesh.

Quote:
Paul never thought to intimate that he would or could attain perfection until either on the day of his death, or the day of His return.

If your refering to Philip 3:11-12, Paul said that he hasn't already obtained, or already perfected by the resurrection of the dead.

He would agree to living with out sin, which y'all seem to say is not posible.

To say sin which is by intent and by choice to be imposible to avoide does not make sence.

No one has even explained why they can't stop sinning yet accept for [b]Compton[/b] 7 [b]Thommy2[/b], but [b]Thommy2[/b] just went off on some bad theological junk that didn't make sence and [b]Compton[/b] misunderstood me.

 2008/6/12 18:41Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Compton wrote:
Hi Logic,

I must say I appreciate the detail you put into your responses. Whatever disagreements we might have, I think you are being serious and not flippant in your posture.

I never intend to be flippant, I am always serious in these threads.

Quote:
I still feel, based on scripture, that sin is more objective then my awareness of it. Guilt is more then intention to me, because I feel God holds man accountable.

How is anyone accountable for that which he can not know?

Quote:
I think Christinyou sums this up for me:
Quote:
-------------------------------------------------
Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all.
-------------------------------------------------
Obviously this is true among human governments, which are not always just. How much more true would this be in God's government, who is perfectly just!
... Again in a human court of law, a man who thinks he did nothing wrong, can be found guilty of a law he did not know or understand and suffer the full punishment for his transgression. I believe it is more so with God,

We are not under law, but grace.
However we are not to be lawless, but we are of the spirit of the law which is love.

Quote:
I imagine substitution is off the table as far you are concerned, so I don't want to belabor this discussion any further.

What do you mean "substitution"?

However, I do like convering with your posts.

 2008/6/12 18:52Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: sinless perfection

Copied from the thread "George Fox on SIN"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23989&forum=36

While I was in prison, diverse professors
came to discourse with me. I had a sense,
before they spoke, that they came to plead
for sin and imperfection ([b]that it is not possible to live the rest of our life in the flesh according to the Scriptural Standard of the Spirit of Christ Jesus[/b]).

I asked them whether they were
believers and had faith.
They said, “Yes.” I asked them, “In whom?” They
said, “In Christ.” I replied, “If ye are true believers in Christ, you are
passed from death to
life; and if passed
from death, then
from sin that
bringeth death; and
if your faith be true,
it will give you victory
over sin and the
devil, purify your
hearts and consciences
(for the true
faith is held in a pure
conscience), and bring you to please God, and give you
access to Him again.”
But they could not endure to hear of purity, and of
victory over sin and the devil. They said they could not
believe any could be free from sin on this side of the
grave. I bade them give over babbling about the Scriptures,
which were holy men’s words, whilst they pleaded
for unholiness.

At another time a company of professors came, who
also began to plead for sin. I asked them whether they
had hope. They said, “Yes, God forbid but we should
have hope.”
I asked them, “What hope is it that you have? Is
Christ in you the hope of your glory? Doth it purify you,
as He is pure?” But they could not abide to hear of being
made pure here.
Then I bade them forbear talking of the scriptures,
which were the holy men’s words, “for,” said I, “the holy
men that wrote the scriptures pleaded for holiness in
heart, life, and conversation here, but since you plead for
impurity and sin, which is of the devil, what have you to
do with the holy men’s words?”


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/12 19:20Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Logic,

Quote:
How is anyone accountable for that which he can not know?



Obviously you've never been audited by the IRS. ;-)

All humor aside, I don't think your question is a very difficult one to answer. The essence of any just law is it's objectivity. It exists outside of our perspective and serves as a reliable measurement of right and wrong. Imagine asking your question to a judge in a courtroom. If the judge was sympathetic to your plight, then what would be the result? Moral chaos.

In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Quote:
However we are not to be lawless, but we are of the spirit of the law which is love.



On this I can agree. I believe this is a great theme covered in the first letter of John. In John's writing I think there may actually be the greatest chance of understnading between us...namely that we can love one another as Christ loved us. This is by being resurrected in him, which is something I can only believe but not explain fully. However, I understand John to explain that fallible imperfect people can still see love completed in them in such an overwhelming way that their consciences are clear and their hope in eternity is sure. Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him. in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;

I believe this means we do not have to live with a duplicitous nature, that is often a source of tormenting condemnation, which I think coincides with one of your points very well. I believe being duplicitous and full of guile in our outward confession while still practicing known sin is at least part of what John means when he talks of ' walking in darkness'. (The other part is firmly holding doctrinally sound Christology and resisting anti-Christ doctrines!) Yet a sound confession must be a truthful confession as well. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. So here I think we see clearly that we walk in the light not as 'sinlessly perfect' but as truthful at all times with God, because we trust his ability to forgive and purify us. Indeed, even if we become convinced of sin, we still do not run and hide like Adam and Eve, but remain in the light.

Yet even when standing in the light, John assures gracious provision for further repentance, so evidently even those walking in the light and in fellowship towards one another are still capable of sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

And along these lines Peter echoes that love at work in us does not keep us sinlessly perfect. 1 Peter 4:8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. I believe this love for one another was commanded and commended by Jesus "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.. (Interesting that he described this as a 'new commandment'...)

So, Christ's love can be perfected or completed in us, but this perfection of love is not synonymous with sinless perfection. Even so, if we use this gap as legal grounds to sin willfully, love is really not perfected in us, nor are we really walking in the light; we are kidding ourselves. (Which is a dangerous game to play with the Holy Spirit.)

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/6/12 19:34Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: accountable

I do indeed like your post Compton, well said sir. But, please, allow me a few comments.

Quote:
How is anyone accountable for that which he can not know?

Obviously you've never been audited by the IRS.



I noticed this idea in a couple different posts. Why are you trying to make the Judgment of God similar to the judgment of evil men?

I thank God that He does not judge for ignorance.

[b]James 4:17[/b]
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

However, I also thank God that He does not leave me ignorant either. By revealing to me what is "the right thing to do" and by diligent obedience to will and to do according to His good pleasure, as He works in me, there remains no place for sin in me.

You are all characterizing sin as a "lack of perfection". If this were true than even in heaven we would all be utterly sinful because we are not God, Who is the Eternal Perfect. This is not sin. Sin is, and has always been, rebellion against God's revealed Nature and Order.

Quote:
If the judge was sympathetic to your plight, then what would be the result? Moral chaos.



Actually, I believe the result would be: forgiveness. Some thing we Christians should learn more about.

"Moral chaos" is not realistic. If morality was chaotic there would be no form to it, as the universe was before creation. As it is, in reality, all morality is governed by the knowledge of God that all men possess (Romans 1:28).

However, by the standards of man's judgment there is neither gain nor loss in morality. It is God who is at work in the hearts of men. As it is written, the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God (James 1:20).

-------------------

Yes, it is true, there will be temptations. But I am sure there needs no explaining that temptation is not sin. Why temptations or past sins would leave a Blood-Bought Christian in pains of guilt is beyond me. The only thing I could apply to such a one is demonic warfare for doubting the certainty of the work of mercy and grace in Christ Jesus.

[b]James 1:15.[/b] Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Temptation must be intimated in the heart for it to bear the fruit of unrighteousness. This intimacy does not require the subsequent physical act for it to be sin either, as we understand from the beatitudes.

Likewise,
[b]1 Corinthians 10:13[/b]
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, [b]but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also[/b], so that you will be able to endure it.

This is very simple. God has spoken plainly, not in parables, "Be Pure! Be Holy! Be Perfect!" His Word is Spirit and Power and is fully furnished to complete the work which He has promised in us, today!

Today is the day of Salvation! Yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not promised; Today is the day that the Lord has made! Do not put off till tomorrow what can be done today!

If, rather, God is not a God of Salvation and has not given a way in the Spirit of Christ Jesus by which we may live in victory over sin, then by all means continue in willful unrighteousness.

By willful, I mean, you know you are a sinner because *this reason* and have no victory over it. And I say, willful, again, because God has freely given the victory. All that is left to say is that you aren't convicted unto sin and righteousness and judgment by which you might be compelled by the love of Christ to freely receive what God has freely provided in Christ Jesus.

If you truly hated sin, then it wouldn't be very tempting anymore, would it? And if there is no cause for temptation, there is no excuse for lust conceiving in you the fruits of sin.

As Paul said, the world is crucified to me. It is a bloody, vile, rotting, fetid, detestable thing to me.
And, not only this, I am also crucified to the world. The world sees me as a bloody, vile, rotting, fetid, detestable thing.

It is a true question, what fellowship has light with darkness?

[b]1 John 2:12-14[/b]
I am writing to you,
[b]little children[/b], because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

I am writing to you,
[b]children[/b], because you know the Father.

I am writing to you,
[b]young men[/b], because you have overcome the evil one.
[b]young men[/b], because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

I am writing to you,
[b]fathers[/b], because you know Him who has been from the beginning.
[b]fathers[/b], because you know Him who has been from the beginning.

So where do you stand on the maturity scale here? If you have not overcome the evil one then there is a high probability you do not qualify even as a "young man" according to the new man in Christ Jesus.

Not only this but the simple matter is as Leonard Ravenhill has said, "You are only as holy as you have intended to be." God has freely given a way in Christ Jesus unto all perfection in Him. Truly, the one who knows to do right and does not do it is judged. That is to say, we know God has required us to "Be Holy! Be Pure! Be Perfect!" [b]and we haven't believed His Word is able to perform it[/b].

[b]Mark 8:34[/b]
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me."

Be aware, this merely proves you have the desire to come after Him, not that you are His disciple. Do not suffer yourself in vainglory but know that no one who seeks the Lord does so in vain.

[b]Revelation 12:11[/b]
And they overcame him ([b]the adversary[/b]) because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Is this teaching offensive to some who believe that Christ has not defeated the adversary and the world? Or, that Christ has not given us power over the flesh, to subdue it, and keep it under foot; to put to death the deeds of the flesh?

This was a hard teaching for myself when I refused to give up my sins as well. I would convince myself that I hated my sins, working up the wrath of man; which does not work the righteousness of God. And not allowing the Wrath of God which was appeased in Christ Jesus to overcome my desire for sin. Or to believe that God was willing to take my sin away if I but arm myself with the same mind as that of Christ Jesus, for he who suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin. Truly, the mind of the flesh does suffer, as in the throws of death, when it is not fed with unrighteousness.

Thanks be to God for every day of Salvation in Christ Jesus.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/12 21:20Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi boG,

Quote:
Why are you trying to make the Judgment of God similar to the judgment of evil men?



I admit mine was an imperfect analogy, but in my defense it is akin to a more perfect parable that Jesus used on occasion, albeit for different topic. (And to your point, Jesus was careful to note that this judge was unrighteous.) "In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect man."...And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge said;now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

So I was not comparing God's perfect judgement to just some human judge in a human court with human prejudice. I was only stating that, even in a human court, the law is ostensibly objective, though we know it is not always so. Yet God will perfectly judge us! Only on the basis of establishing our guilt, is there a need for forgiveness. Now I think at this point we are in agreement.

However, speaking of comparing God to evil men in my imperfect analogy, let's not compare God's righteous atonement and forgiveness, to the sanguine clemency of evil men either! God doesn't forgive you because you were sorry for your sin. He forgives you on account of Christ's perfect work on the cross. Your sorrow may show a true heart of repentence, but it's not going to atone for your sin.

Regarding your statement that there is not really moral chaos I can only say I completely agree! Why is there no moral chaos, or even relativity? Because in God's universe men don't simply absolve themselves of guilt by passing their own inspection according to their own subjective consciences. (Am I saying that we should accept living with a guilty conscience presuming upon grace? no...) God has something to say about the guilt of each one of us. On that day some will be convinced by their own conscience they are ready for eternity, only to be awakened to a dreadful reality...and also on that day others, who have put on Christ with awe and humility, will see fully what the scandalous cross of Christ has done for them, and be further awestruck by God. As you might agree, we may not know the half of what Christ's blood has covered on our behalf.

Yet certainly we both agree there is not moral chaos.

Quote:
Actually, I believe the result would be: forgiveness. Some thing we Christians should learn more about.



Again I agree, and thought I was laying the ground work for forgiveness by first establishing that there is guilt even when we are ignorant of the law. Again the rub here is that I believe God finds men guilty even when man thinks he is innocent. If ignorance was innocence there would be no need for forgiveness, only instruction.

This conversation is kind of a merry go round if we let it be. If you believe I was advocating a kind of permission for willful sin, then I can only say that written communication has failed here. If you think I am saying that we must be overcome by sin, then again, I am not being clear enough.

I simply believe the bible teaches that man is judged according to God's perfect judgement, and not according to our sincere but imperfect conscience. Yet I also believe that to not cultivate a sincere conscience and to cultivate a sinful heart is a sign of not having ever repented, and is akin to mocking God. (Which will surely fail.) Just know that when I am talking about the law, I am mindful of grace, and that when I talk about grace I am not talking about living in defeat to sin or lawlessness.

For me, all of this posting has been helpful in reminding me that the issue of what we are being saved from is still a controversy. If I seem hopeless about my ability to repent enough to fix my sin problem, then that is well for I don't think man can atone for sin with his earnest repentance, anymore then a man in debt can pay back the bank with honest regret and tears. Now a man may submit without deception, bring his records to the bank for full disclosure and be willing to endure total scrutiny. However, where the debtors books don't line up with the creditors, the debtor must defer. Likewise we can submit fully and with a pure conscience to God. But, as you noted above, God is not some human banker exacting every last penny without mercy, but has prepared a full payment for all of our debt. This payment satisfies the debt that is on God's ledger, and not man's ledger. I feel scripture is clear in God's record of man from the start. Romans 1 describes man as having a conscience so seared that he is in denial as to his wretchedness before God. Yet, according to the law, ignorance is not bliss.

I think this objective view of sin is biblical, because it puts God's perspective of sin above our own, which is also something the church needs to learn more about. ;-)

Thank you for your kind and patient words boG. Blessings,

MC

(edit: I wanted to add how I appreciate the sincere sharing of God's word as well here. Also, sometimes I find we can get into disagreement when one person is meaning to discuss the power of the spirit-filled life and another is meaning to discuss the grounds of salvation. Perhaps that is the case here.)


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/6/12 22:04Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: sin leading to death

Quote:
Again the rub here is that I believe God finds men guilty even when man thinks he is innocent. If ignorance was innocence there would be no need for forgiveness, only instruction.



John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, `We see,' your sin remains."

Jesus said, if you were blind, you would have no sin. Is this not speaking of ignorance?

Ah, but we Pharisees, "We see!"; when in truth they do not. This is an interesting verse. Jesus says in essence, were you ignorant you would have no sin. The Pharisees say, we aren't ignorant! Whereby Jesus says, your sin remains, hence, the "if ..."

Truly they were "ignorant" but not in the way Jesus was speaking. More properly, they were "arrogant".

Quote:
Yet I also believe that to not cultivate a sincere conscience and to cultivate a sinful heart is a sign of not having ever repented, and is akin to mocking God. (Which will surely fail.)



[b]Well said![/b]

Quote:
Yet, according to the law, ignorance is not bliss.



On the contrary, this is according to the law of ordinances in the natural world. God is the only Judge capable of imputing sin, and He looks at the heart. Breaking the "laws of the land" or being charged with a "crime" do not necessarily mean that a sin was committed. As the laws of men are not the Laws of God. Or that any laws were broken with intention to do so. Even worldly courts distinguish meditated crimes from accidents.

Again, [b]James 4:17[/b], Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Now please, do not mistake this verse. The true question remains, HOW MUCH do we truly KNOW to do? We know a great deal, surely; even by mere common instinct.

Yet, there was a time even when I was first born again that I continued in carnality with things that did not convict me. As these things were lawful to do, though they were not beneficial to my relationship with Christ. Just as it is written,

[b]Proverbs 22:15[/b]
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Today, however, these things do convict me, requiring of me to "redeem the time, for these days are evil".

Thus, what was at first a sin not leading to death (though all sin is sin), has become sin leading to death for me because I can not continue in such things without my conscience being defiled. Meanwhile, I am aware that these personal convictions are my own and, I assume, in rare instances do not apply to any other person in the world but me. And, again, is based on my own faith towards God.

Drinking beer is a common example. To one, it is a pleasant treat (with self control). To another, a stumbling block. To one, a blessing worthy of giving thanks to God, who gave it. To the other, a curse and an offense.

It always was a strange thing for me to read, "sin not leading to death". Yet, there it is. This verse is not a "blanket" statement either. But, as I have been describing above, is based solely on God's workings with each and every individual.

Quote:
I simply believe the bible teaches that man is judged according to God's perfect judgement, and not according to our sincere but imperfect conscience.



God's Judgment is surely Perfect, but God's Law for every man is not the same as the OT Law, given to the Jew, or the Law of Christ Jesus, required of every son of faith. There are more than one Final Judgments revealed in the Book of Revelation. Each Judgment has its order and dispensation. The Christians shall be judged in Christ Jesus (a wonderful place to be, yet not without tears), sinners as the enemies of Christ that they have been; and yet there remains another Judgment for the "just" and the "unjust".

For this reason you must understand what the "conscience" is. This is not some part of man that rationalizes or "grades" how bad one sin is over another. The conscience bears witness to the work of the Law written in their hearts and nothing more.

As I mentioned previously, "Sin is, and has always been, rebellion against God's revealed Nature and Order."

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, [b]you would have [u]no sin[/u][/b]"

[b]Romans 1:20[/b]
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, [b]so that they are without excuse[/b].

So they are without excuse, for what? For sin! For unbelief! And what was the judgment God gave to those who hated to retain the knowledge of God in themselves?

[b]Romans 1:28[/b], And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

They were given over to the unnatural affections of their hearts because they hated their knowledge of God. This is not ignorance but willful corruption and deception of the soul.

Zephaniah 1:12
And I will punish the men
Who are stagnant in spirit,
Who say in their hearts,
'The LORD will not do good or evil!'

One more example, a good one I think:

It is [b]not[/b] a sin leading to death to buy Starbucks coffee (though it is the devil! ;-)).

Yet, one day, while you are lawfully preparing to buy some five-perhaps-six dollar coffee drink, it occurs to you, "Lord, this stuff is 6 bucks! If I but drink this unprofitable drink 3 days every week, for a month, that is 72 dollars! I don't even tithe that much! And I wonder how it is I never have enough to give to the poor and the needy! Goodness, 72 dollars, if I make 15 dollars an hour at work that is 4.8 hours of work! I don't even give 5 hours of my week to serve my own community! When was the last time I spent 5 hours with my family and friends, in the Lord?" (And don't get me started with video games and television!)

And now this simple drink is no longer a drink. Just as the woman who gave two mites (Mark 12:44) did not simply give two mites. She gave all she had! It wasn't two mites, it was her children's meal for the entire day! It was a warm blanket for her baby!

And now this casual coffee drink defiles the conscience to enjoy. Not because it is sin in itself but rather because of the selfishness of the heart to satisfy its own pleasure at the ignominy of others. And still, for many this is not sin; and neither is it condemnable until the Lord convicts the heart.

It would be a wonderful day if we could all see money and time, not as ends, but as the means to the ends that they bring. Money is not money, but food and clothes (and with these shall we be content, [b]1 Timothy 6:8[/b]), etc.. Time is not time, but fellowship and communion and prayer, etc.. (if you do not consider your job to be all three of these things then you either need a new job or you need to repent and begin working at your job as one serving the Lord and glorifying Him in all things.)

I believe we can all agree our Heavenly Father has set a High Calling for us in Christ Jesus. However, it will not be sin to have not perfected to that Highest of Callings; for some "did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred."

And, again, "For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[...] "for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."

[b]Sin is not the "lack of perfection" but the "lack of increase in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ".[/b] None-the-less, let us never lower the Standard, though we may be condemned to hell in the end; never lower the Standard. Let us press on with all diligence.


I believe a great deal of the controversy in this thread lies in this:

1) ignorance: when we present this teaching from Scripture it is easily confused with "deceiving one's self". We are not as ignorant as many would believe or imagine themselves to be.

2) living a "sinless" life: the common concept of sin seems to be greatly skewed from what Scripture reveals. The most basic understanding of sin is this:
God says, "Do this," man says, "I will not";
God says, "Don't do this," man says, "I will do".

How does God say these things? His Words are Spirit and Life. He is not speaking on tablets of stone but in the very hearts of men.

It has been my personal understanding that the conscience is, or is part of, the "measure of faith" given to all men whereby all might haply come to know the only true God. And much greater than this, "my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 9:1). The way it is meant to be.

Quote:
God's perspective of sin above our own, which is also something the church needs to learn more about.



And this is very true. While I have been, perhaps seemingly, casual in speaking of ignorance and how it isn't sin. I will indeed not stay my hand to say with conviction the exceedingly sinfullness of sin. I may be scorned for speaking of God's grace concerning unfeigned ignorance; but [b]Who[/b] shall scorn those who apply this same grace to "seared consciences"? To those who say, "I can go to heaven even though I live a life of sin"? Whatever happened to the days when wicked men went to hell?

Jeremiah 17
9. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10. [b]I the LORD search the heart[/b], I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

It is what comes out of a man that makes him unclean! Not what goes in a man but what comes out! Guard your hearts!

Quote:
sometimes I find we can get into disagreement when one person is meaning to discuss the power of the spirit-filled life and another is meaning to discuss the grounds of salvation.



Possibly :P

However, the grounds of salvation has nothing to do with sinners sinning, but sinners repenting and believing. And as Christians we are required to bear fruit in keeping with repentance. As we are never supposed to leave the grounds of salvation.

Quote:
I wanted to add how I appreciate the sincere sharing of God's word as well here.



Freely we have received, thus we are bid, freely give.
What better to freely give than what we have freely received in Christ?

It is always a pleasure, sir! :-P


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/13 23:30Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Bog,

Apparently this controversy is linked to not having the same measurement of sin . For you, and I assume Logic, one must be aware of a transgression before they can be found guilty of it. For myself, I agree that whatever you are aware of you are responsible for, but I believe the bible's measurement of our guilt extends to include what I am also insensitive of.

Let's do some clarifying first. You are occasionaly introducing this straw man who confesses Christ while living in willful sin. I'm not sure who you are referring to, but I should hope no one here is arguing for that terrible 'bend the knee-sin for free' religion that has infected so many people. I think we can let that particular straw man go.

Also I can agree with you concerning things like food and clothing. I believe the gospel adresses something deeper then outward wordliness, but inward corruption that turns alcohol into alcoholism. And yet, as you well know, love is the strongest motivation to lay down personal liberties for the interest and care of another.

Okay, back to the discussion of whether we can be found guilty if we aren't aware of our guilt. You yourself said you would rather the standard exclude you from heaven then be lowered for you. Well, by recognizing that there is this objective measurement that you referred to as the standard you are making my case for me!

Now regarding your case, the scriptures you applied do not help as you might expect. Jesus, did say that if they were blind they would have no sin. But he was being ironic with them, because they were blind! They saw themselves as already righteous and wise, and could not recognize Christ's ministry, authority , and indentity. As a result he was going to let them remain guilty in their self-righteousness. As you know, the Gospel is resisted or missed by those who already feel righteous based on their own self-evaluation.

Jesus doesn't really concede that they see anything at all, but only that they claim to see. Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. (KJV). Same verse, different rendering...Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.(NIV) And if after we have made our claim, God sees something different then our self-assesment, will he hold that against us? I believe the answer is yes, and that is why the cross of Christ is so important to those who have put their faith in Jesus.

God's measurement of our hearts does not defer to our measurement, but clearly supercedes it, overrules it...even contradicts it if needed, as demonstrated in these verses. All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD...Honest scales and balances are from the LORD; all the weights in the bag are of his making. Prov 3

And again...All a man's ways seem right to him, but the LORD weighs the heart. Prov 21

Furthermore Paul picks up this important truth and makes it explicitly clear in 1 Corinthians 4:3-5. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts.

Brother I believe our two views are not crossing one another but aligned perfectly. Yes, they are like two tape measures stretched out in the same direction, but they are of different lengths as one takes additional ground into consideration. In other words, I agree with everthing you are saying, and am replying 'yes, but the guilt of man requires more then a commitment to live without known sin. There must be a perfect reckoning, a complete atonment, and this is only possible because of the cross.

Brother, I am going out of town with my family, so if I am silent for a week, that is why. Thank you much for the very edifying dialogue.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/6/14 1:01Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

I have no intention of diving into this debate, but will insert just a few words. May they be of use to someone.

First, Compton said,

Quote:
This controversy is linked to not having the same measurement of sin.



I agree completely.

This past weekend I attended a brother's wedding. Several people there professed to have received the "second blessing" and were living in "total sanctification". When asked to expound their experience, one fellow stated that he had not sinned once in more than six months. After this statement, one listener struggled to reattach his jaw.

The brother making this claim was, to all appearances, completely serious and no novice. I asked him to clarify what he meant by "had not sinned". He emphatically asserted that he had not sinned in thought, word, deed, or intention for the whole of six months. Standing before me was a man - and I make no mock or jest - claiming greater spiritual attainments than Wesley, Whitefield, Brainerd, Ryle (who wrote the book on Holiness, google it) or the vast majority of those we respect the wisdom of, ever did. I had to wonder, was he deceived? A liar? Or had he a very different standard of sin?

Now, I agree no temptation tries the believer which God has not made a way of escape from - if, and only if, the man recognizes the temptation and seeks his deliverance by Christ's power. But this does not even touch the sins which are done unintentionally and obliviously, or suddenly out of neglect to show diligent care, or through gross unfamiliarity with the scriptures. If a man squanders his time in vain activities so that he does not read and know portions of God's word which describe his particular sins, he is become guilty of two crimes, not innocent of all.

Paul teaches that the old nature beside which Christ's life is imparted is to be "reckoned" dead. He does not say it is "dead" in the strict sense of being annihilated and having no more influence whatsoever, but rather "reckoned dead" in that we consider it as beaten; inferior to the new and living power that works in us. The victory of Christ's indwelling is to the old nature as a decisive battle, irrevocably turning the tides of war, though not at once ending the war. Christ in us is the beginning of the end of intentional sin.

For now we await the old nature's final obliteration at spiritual glorification. We practice mortification, the process of putting to death our "members" which are upon earth. Consider that Paul refers to these members not as physical appendages, such as hands or eyes, but as lusts and sinful impulses which are properly called our own. They are distinct from the world and from the devil; they are the remaining drives and corruptions not yet banished from believers. We are now freed from their dominion and guilt. Our calling is to subdue and mortify these fleshly desires.

 2008/6/14 3:33Profile





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