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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

This is the pain of sin and conception David is speaking of from his mother's womb.

Did you read my reply on 2008/6/10 18:13 about this verse?

Quote:
But the birthing itself is in sin because of the pain and sorrow of the curse of the sin upon it.

Phil, this is a christian discussion, not a new-age discussion. We don't need your new-age philosophies in this conversation.

"birthing" is not in sin.

Quote:
That is the pain and sorrow because of Eve's sin. Why does a child cry? Because he is not getting what he wants.

There is nothing wrong in ctying because your not getting what you want.

My wife wants a baby and cries because she isn't getting one. No one had better call her to be sinning.

As for babies, they have no other way of communicating, and the crying tells us things we need to know about the baby.

 2008/6/11 11:58Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
SaintLina wrote:
That we may not be deceived or mistaken as to the nature and definition of sin, let us define exactly what sin is. According to Scripture, there are at least five basic definitions of sin. Here are the scriptures that define this for us:

1. “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” (Romans 7:23)

That verse is not a "definition", it was never meant to be one.
I've explaind already what the "law if sin" is already in this thread:
The ''law of sin'' is the demands of my own fleshly desires & effections against known law that bring me in opposition to God which separates me from Him.
The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh & my own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.

Quote:
4. “And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Romans 14:23)

Just to make this verse clear, this verse is talking about willful, intentional denial to have faith.

Quote:
Let us now take each of these definitions of sin and examine ourselves. Please don't just read through these questions and skim over them lightly, for they undeniably prove sinless perfection to be utterly false. As you read each question, ask yourself if you've done or if you've failed in this. I am especially addressing those of you who claim to have attained to some degree of sinless perfection. The following questions correspond numerically with the definitions of sin above:

1. Have you been born of an earthly father and mother and are you a descendant of Adam?

All mankind are innocent of this, for this is beyond the power of anyones control.
There is no sin in being born even if it is "of an earthly father & mother"

Quote:
If so, you have a sinful nature (a “law of sin” -Rom. 7:23) that dwells within your flesh and you are inherently defiled and thereby guilty in the eyes of a holy God. (Romans 5:12, Job 15:14-16, Job 25:4, Psalm 51:5)

The only reason anyone has a "sinful nature" is because the keep refusing Christ.
Not because they were born "of an earthly father & mother"!

Quote:
2. Do you perfectly obey the Law of God in thought, word and deed; plus in motive, desire, intention, etc.?

This is posible.
We have Jesus as a standard, HE did this, therefore, we may also. The secret to accomplishment is by/through the spirit of the law, ehich is love; and this is how Jesus fulfilled the law.

Quote:
Since becoming a Christian, have you ever exaggerated or stretched the truth, or said something that indirectly portrayed a false witness (lying)?

Hyperbolies are not sin, they are figures of speech to make a point
Quote:
Or have you lied when witnessing to someone, and a sinner on the streets asks you if you are without sin and you say you are? Have you ever looked with lust, even for half a second, at a member of the opposite sex (adultery)?

It is not lust to acknowledge beauty.
It is posible not ever to go beyond that.

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Have you ever had a single impure thought?

Some thoughts are not your own.
Have you ever had a thought and said to yourself, "where did that come from"?
There are "powers" out there which may subliminaly plant thoughts to you.
It is posible to deny these thought, throw them out and go on normally.

Quote:
Have you ever desired to have something that does not belong to you or even entertained the thought of desiring it (covetousness)?

Not any more!
If I want anything, I will never think of wanting that person's thing, I will just get my own.
This is very do-able! Done.

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Have you ever called somebody a “fool” or “idiot”, or any other insulting name, out of the least degree of anger (which is murder)?

I never become angery at a broth without a cause.
Do-able, done.

Quote:
Have you even entertained the thought of doing it? Have you accidentally taken a pen, paperclip, or any other item that does not belong to you and failed to make restitution (stealing)?

Accidents are not sins. Hope you don't punish your children for accidents!

If you walk after the spirit, you will never sin.
The thing you are forgetting is that all these are posible.
It doesn't matter if you used to do any of these or have failed. What matters if if it is posible, and all these are.
What do you say that sinnless perfection is posible?
If not, why not?

Quote:
Have you ever made a single decision out of self-will?

What is "self will"?
If your will is conformed to that of God's, there is nothing wrong with "self will".

If any thing is not posible, it is not a sin not to do.
If it can't be done, it wouldn't be a requirement.
This is posible.
Again, it doesn't matter if you used to do any of these or have failed. What matters if it is posible, and all these are.

The whole point to this thread is not if one is not reached sinnless perfection.
The whole point is if it is posible.

I won't even finish refuting your post becsuse your whole premise is wrong.

It don't matter if your guilty, all that matters is these are posinle,which they are.
Therefore, sinless perfection is posible.

You shoild also receive the correct context & understanding on dome of these which you brought up.

It is evident that you have the wrong conception of some of these and even sin its self.

I eill ask uou the same question that I asked Thommy2 & Brothertom:


[b][size=medium]Tell me specifically why you can't stop sinning here on earth right now?

And if you can't, tell me how that is a sin dince you can not stop it?

I am still waiting for the other two to answer.[/size][/b]

Quote:
DISCLAIMER: Nothing said in this short questionnaire should be taken as a justification for willful sin in the life of a professing Christian. The Bible says if we continue to sin willfully (that is, against known light in known sin by an act of the will), and persist in that sin without true repentance after receiving the knowledge of the truth, then there is no sacrifice left to cover our sins (Christ's blood then profits us nothing), and all we have to look forward to is the fierce judgment of God (Hebrews 10:26-31). If you claim to be a Christian, but you have tolerated any known form of sin in your life, and you're not fighting it, wrestling against it, hating it with all your heart, and finding repentance and ultimately, victory over it, then you are in grave and serious danger.

You contradict yourself here.
You say all sin is willfull (that is, against known light in known sin by an act of the will), but then you say sinless perfection can't be done.
if something is of the will, it must be able to be done concistantly because everyone is able to allways choose.

Since sin is always of the will, why can't sinnless perfection be atained?

If it can't be, then we are all innocent of being unable to not sin, this changes the whole definition of what sin is.

Quote:
The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and the business of a Christian is a conduct of habitual holiness and love, and bearing fruit for God's glory.

If you can't have sinnless perfection, what you just said convicts you of being unable to learn from HIS teaching, and unable to come to the full fruitfulness for God's glory.

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If you are living in any known sin, and you continue to do that sin over and over, and aren't fighting for your deliverance with a holy violence, and seeking victory above everything else in life, then you have very much reason to doubt the reality of your salvation.

This sounds as though it is a futile, worthless fighting for deliverance, because it is unatainable to come to what your fighting for.

Quote:
Those born of God have a new nature within them,

Sounds as though this "new nature" is not good enough, for it can not do what is posible.

 2008/6/11 12:05Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KrispyKrittr wrote:
No one in this world has ever reached sinless perfection. I dont even know why this is being debated.

Jesus was God in flesh. You are not. You flippantly make it sound as tho there is no difference between you and Jesus.

There is no difference between us & Jesus in the flesh.
If Jesus is our standard for perfection, it must be able to attain to.
If it can not be attained, then the standard is not justifiable.
Standards must be able to be attained to, otherwise the standard is useless.
Standards are always to be attained.

Jesus was not perfectly sinnless just becsuse because He is God, it is because He loved His Father supremly.
If the only way Jesus could be sinnless is because He is God, Then our standard is unjust, incompatable to us, and impossible to attain and not justifiable to put us under such a heavy yoke of burrden with such a standard.

Quote:
Secondly, if what you say is true, using your logic then you would also be able to walk on water, turn water into wine, heal anyone you wished to, feed 5,000 with a couple of fish and loavess, drive out demons, be transformed into you're heavenly body so you can talk with Moses and other OT prophets, come back from the dead, ascend into heaven... oh, I almost forgot... create everything that was created... etc etc...

All these are posible by the same way we are sinless, according to the working of His mighty power which he performed in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,.
However, the creation process is completed, but there is the "Gift of Miracles" that may create somthing out of nothing.

Quote:
Finish that list first, and then we'll discuss whether or not you can reach sinless perfection. Personally, I think you'll have an easier time finishing the above list than you'll have reaching sinless perfection.

Why is it imposible?
If it is, then there is no sin.
This is because all sin is avoidable, and if sinlessness is imposible, then sin can not be avoided.
By you denying the posibility of sinlessness perfection, you change the very definition of sin.

 2008/6/11 12:29Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:


First off, Jesus was God in flesh. You are not. You flippantly make it sound as tho there is no difference between you and Jesus.

Secondly, if what you say is true, using your logic then you would also be able to walk on water, turn water into wine, heal anyone you wished to, feed 5,000 with a couple of fish and loavess, drive out demons, be transformed into you're heavenly body so you can talk with Moses and other OT prophets, come back from the dead, ascend into heaven... oh, I almost forgot... create everything that was created... etc etc...

Finish that list first, and then we'll discuss whether or not you can reach sinless perfection. Personally, I think you'll have an easier time finishing the above list than you'll have reaching sinless perfection.

Krispy



Jesus was God in flesh, but also fully man as you and me, to say he was not, is as much as a heresy as to say he was not God, anyone who say Jesus was not fully man, is as much a heretic as a Jehovahs witness.

Yet he also was fully God at the same time.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/6/11 13:44Profile
Thommy2
Member



Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60
Wisconsin

 Re:

"There is no difference between us & Jesus in the flesh." - Logic
........................hmm..................hmm.........................explain?
I understand we are able to avoid sinning, but Christ although fully human came not from sinful seed like YOU and I did. So we were DEAD in our tresspasses and sins and have a sinful nature that if it weren't for judicial justification we'd be in trouble b/c sanctification is a ongoing process not instantaneous. Christ was not born of sinful seed...he was not born DEAD in tresspasses and sins.......that is a pretty huge difference between you and Christ.


_________________
Thom

 2008/6/11 14:28Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Just a little interjection here:

Sometimes we get bogged down with a topic because we are misunderstanding the meaning of a word. The word “perfect” often encounters this malady.

In musical harmony we sometimes refer to perfect vs imperfect cadences. Now, a non-musician may be tempted to think that an imperfect cadence is one that has mistakes in it –wrong notes, whereas the perfect cadence has no mistakes. But that is a misunderstanding. Really an imperfect cadence is the combination of chords that gives a phrase of music an unfinished sound – as it it MUST move on…………….. A complete cadence, on the other hand gives a finished sound. When you hear a perfect cadence you KNOW that you have come to the end of something.

In Greek study we also encounter the same idea: perfect and imperfect tenses. A perfect tense describes an action that was fully competed and has consequences for the present time. An imperfect tense has an element of continuity to it.

When Jesus said, “It IS finished” he was referring to something that was completed, done! In other words, it was NOT imperfect – meaning ongoing.

Now, apply that to the perfection that God calls us to. Is this not about being complete in Christ, through his COMPETED work.

If we find ourselves focusing on ourselves on sins, and how we can try harder to be less sinful, we might be believing in an imperfect work of Christ – as if his cross work is not good enough. It is as if we ourselves have to complete job. This is, I believe, is at the root of the legalistic mindset (behavior focused).

Would these not be the key questions to ponder:
What does Christ's “finished” work of atonement mean to me?
Am I living in his perfection or my imperfection?

Diane


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Diane

 2008/6/11 14:55Profile
Thommy2
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Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60
Wisconsin

 Re:

"There is no difference between us & Jesus in the flesh." - Logic

Let's use some real logic to assess this statement...which if this statement is wrong you are in error...if you are in error it's most likely SIN causing you to misinterpret theological/biblical issues....here we go

Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
- Just showing all believers had to be quickened b/c they were dead

Phillipians 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
- Jesus in the flesh was in the form of God, and was equal to God

Acts 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
-Men can only come to salvation under the name of Jesus

John 8: 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
- In the flesh Jesus was able to claim eternality as well as equality with God

Hebrews 1: 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
-God appointed Jesus heir of all things, Jesus made the worlds, Jesus purged our sin, Jesus is and exact representation of God, and Jesus had the right to take the seat of honor and authority in the Triune God-head.


Hey Logic just let me know if you can fulfill all the Scriptural requirements mentioned above...
because if "There is no difference between us & Jesus in the flesh." you have to be able to fulfill what Jesus did or there is LOGICALLY a difference.
by the way you were born dead in your trespasses and sins so there is already a difference...but hey ya never know...


_________________
Thom

 2008/6/11 15:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Jesus was God in flesh, but also fully man as you and me, to say he was not, is as much as a heresy as to say he was not God, anyone who say Jesus was not fully man, is as much a heretic as a Jehovahs witness.



[b]hmmhmm[/b]...I dont know why I even bother to post on this forum anymore... people like you, who have been here for a long time and know me well, ought not to take my words and twist them into something unrecognizable. You know that is not what I was saying at all.

What rediculousness this is.

I know Jesus was fully God and fully man... as if I even need to clarify that for everyone. Duh.

Logic... your doctrine and theology is way off. Sorry to tell you that. The very fact that we CAN NOT attain perfection, and keep every letter of the Law is the very reason we NEED Jesus!

Man this forum frustrates me.

Krispy

 2008/6/11 17:00
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
Jesus was God in flesh, but also fully man as you and me, to say he was not, is as much as a heresy as to say he was not God, anyone who say Jesus was not fully man, is as much a heretic as a Jehovahs witness.



[b]hmmhmm[/b]...I dont know why I even bother to post on this forum anymore... people like you, who have been hear for a long time and know me well, ought not to take my words and twist them into something unrecognizable. You know that is not what I was saying at all.

What rediculousness this is.

I know Jesus was fully God and fully man... as if I even need to clarify that for everyone. Duh.




I must apologize brother, after re-reading your post i realize i must have done poor job reading it the first time. I see now you did not say what i thought you said.

My fault.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/6/11 17:03Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Thommy2 wrote:
Let's use some real logic to asses this statement...which if this statement is wrong you are in error...if you are in error it's most likely SIN causing you to misinterpret theological/biblical issues....here we go

Why is it most likely sin to cause misinterpreting Scripture?
Could it be that some one misinterprets Scripture because they have not read the context, have a dierent definition of a main word...ect...
There does not need to be sin for misinterpreting Scripture.

Quote:
Phillipians 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
- Jesus in the flesh was in the form of God, and was equal to God:

Okay, the only difference is that HE is God.
You gon the verse wrong. Did you din by doing that?
V. 6 is Him in heavan with that mind(v.5) we read about, not as flesh & blood yet. After we read what mind Jesus had in v.6 then HE came in the flesh.
V. 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8a And being found in fashion as a man,
Romans 8:3b God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Jesus was a man just as you & I, no difference, only HE is God, but that ain't why HE was sinless.

Did you read my response yo Krispy?

Quote:
John 8: 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
- In the flesh Jesus was able to claim eternality as well as equality with God.

Because He is God, but that ain't why HE was sinless.

Quote:
Hey Logic just let me know if you can fulfill all the Scriptural requirements mentioned above...

Okay, the only difference is that HE is God, but that ain't why HE was sinless.

Quote:
because if "There is no difference between us & Jesus in the flesh." you have to be able to fulfill what Jesus did or there is LOGICALLY a difference
by the way you were born dead in your trespasses and sins so there is already a difference...but hey ya never know...

No one is born dead in trespasses. One must first trespass in order to be dead in them, and before anyone was born, they have not yet sinned.

Quote:
I understand we are able to avoid sinning, but Christ although fully human came not from sinful seed like YOU and I did.

Show me where in Scripture that "seed" is sinful.

Quote:
So we were DEAD in our tresspasses and sins and have a sinful nature that if it weren't for judicial justification we'd be screwed b/c sanctification is a ongoing process not instantaneous.

Since your premise of "sinful seed" in erroneous, so is this.
The only reason that anyone is dead in tresspasses and sins is because of their own sins, not because they were born of so called "sinful seed"

About this sinful nature, I've already explained wy anyone would have a sinful nature. It is because they don't love Christ.

Quote:
Christ was not born of sinful seed...he was not born DEAD in tresspasses and sins.......that is a pretty huge difference between you and Christ.

You have no Scripural support for these theories; born of sinful seed, born DEAD in tresspasses and sins, sin nature...

 2008/6/11 18:15Profile





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