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 Re:

Linn, I too seem to understand that the same as you. And I thoroughly agree with what you said here.

What we do see happening is a melting down and meshing together through this type of article.

MY comments Diane were based on what I have seen here on SI with many discussions of many topics.

I also used an example of a subject that has NEVER been resolved, not only here but out there as well. Does that make ME a cynic? No actually a realist.

This article is one man's opinion, and is not added into the Bible as ordained by God. It can be used in a good way as well as a bad way.

It's not my fault Protestant mean to protest Catholicism. They separated themselves based on irreconcilable differences.


But now we do see this approach used opening dialogue . Has this weakened the CHURCH? I do believe it has.

Now there is different stages of spiritual growth….and we are called to MATURITY. That’s non-negotiable. Those aren’t the opponents I believe this article is speaking to.


One thing I do find interesting as well. *This article* should not be held over anyone’s head as a club to bring anyone into submission for boldly stating personal conviction…that has been stated by many a Godly Pastor TODAY.


Katy

 2008/3/15 19:39









 Re: Polemic Theology: How to Deal with Those Who Differ from Us


crsschk said

Quote:
there is no need for any of us to be speaking in his stead

Hi Mike,

I linked to the old thread to try to avoid it, but for the sake of those who might think the digging up of bodies had been advocated by those in the previous discussion[u]s[/u] - going back beyond the linked thread - I believe it was necessary to mention it here most clearly, especially since 'raising the dead' has been one of the balls in this conversation.

 2008/3/15 19:42









 Re:

Diane asked:

Quote:
These all seem to portray a tone of decided defeat. Or is the reason you are not delving into the article, even in order to use any of it to prove your point, is that it is uncharted territory for you?





Actually No Diane,

Is Paul here stating defeat?

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;


It's important to know who considers you an opponent. If a Calvinist considers me the opponent who wants to win me over.....can't be done.

Does that make them the defeated?

I hope so!!!

We are more then conquers In Christ Jesus....overcoming anything that is NOT of Christ!


Katy

 2008/3/15 20:09
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: What Can I Learn from Those Who Differ From Me?


According to Nicole, those who differ from us can actually help us refine and strengthen the presentation of our position. The following snippets from his article expound on that important truth:

What Can I Learn from Those Who Differ From Me?
Could I be Wrong?

The first thing that I should be prepared to learn is that I may be wrong and the other person may be right. Obviously, this does not apply to certain basic truths of the faith like the Deity of Christ or salvation by grace. The whole structure of the Christian faith is at stake here, and it would be instability rather than broad-mindedness to allow these to be eroded by doubts. Yet, apart from issues where God Himself has spoken so that doubt and hesitancy are really not permissible, there are numerous areas where we are temperamentally inclined to be very assertive and in which we can quite possibly be in error. When we are unwilling to acknowledge our fallibility, we reveal that we are more interested in winning a discussion and safeguarding our reputation than in the discovery and triumph of truth. A person who corrects our misapprehensions is truly our helper rather than our adversary, and we should be grateful for this service rather than resentful of the correction. (…)

What are the Facts?

In the second place we may learn from one who differs that our presentation, while correct as far as it goes, fails to embody the truth in its entirety on the subject in view. Although what we assert is true, there are elements of truth that, in our own clumsy way, we have overlooked. For instance, we may be so concerned to assert the deity of Christ that we may appear to leave no room for His humanity. (…)

What are the Dangers?

I may learn from those who differ from me that I have not sufficiently perceived certain dangers to which my view is exposed and against which I need to be especially on guard. I may find out notably that there are certain weighty objections to which I had not given sufficient attention heretofore. Here again, I must be grateful for a signal service rendered by the objector. Instead of being irked by the opposition, I should rise to the challenge of presenting my view with appropriate safeguards and in such a way as to anticipate objections that are likely to arise.(…)

What about Ambiguities?

We may learn from those who object that we are not communicating as we should and that they have not rightly understood what we wanted to say. In this we can be benefited also, for the whole purpose of speaking (or writing) is to communicate. If we don't communicate, we might as well remain silent. And if we don't manage to communicate properly what we think, we have to learn to speak better. (…)

I'd say that some of the greatest benefits of forums such as SI potentially lie within the teachings of these statements.
Have you found that to be true? I have.

Praise God for SI!

Oh Lord, keep us from getting trapped in fruitless discussion, but please nudge us on towards higher aspiriations - for our growth and for the edification of fellow saints!

Diane




_________________
Diane

 2008/3/16 4:54Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3286
Texas

 Re:

My advise to all is to forget all that been said here and go with the Holy Spirit to led you "through" scripture trust me you cannot go wrong with this advise. Mans opinions or wisdom cannot even come close to what God is telling us through the Holy Spirit, so disagree or argue or debate all you want and that might be healthy to some, but you will still be off considerably compared to what Gods tells us through the Holy Spirit. :-)


_________________
Bill

 2008/3/16 9:57Profile









 Re:

Excellent Bill! The Holy Spirit IS our Teacher, the is HIS ministry. HE will lead us into all truth.

Here is what Scripture tells us concerning those who [u]oppose themselves[/u].

2 Timothy 2:20-29

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25In meekness instructing those that [u]oppose themselves[/u]; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


Katy

 2008/3/16 10:37
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Isolated individualistic understanding

Quote:
My advise to all is to forget all that been said here and go with the Holy Spirit to led you "through" scripture trust me you cannot go wrong with this advise.



Then why this does continue to prove out the exact opposite?

If we are to forget all that has been said here, would that include even this advise? Why bother if we are all taught as individuals to even come together and compare notes as it were?

Does the Holy Spirit speak contrary to one and to the other something completely foreign? I am deeply grieved over the sin that is prevalent even here. The defending and proud spirit back of the comments. It's evident and yet dismissed. The incredulity and irony of an article that is only a slice of opinion taken to extremes and not even recognizing the fact that even something attempting to speak to how we might discuss matters is made into yet another ... [i]debate[/i].

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

And the answer is ... 'I don't care' ? That is what is being said like or not, no specific words are necessary.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/3/16 11:45Profile









 Re:


Are we spending our time discussing or obeying.

2 Timothy 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

We see the friends of Job wanting to discuss Job’s situation while Job, going through those firey trials was the one who said “I shall come forth as GOLD“, all the while the friends of Job, giving WRONG advise, whom God was very angry.


There is no other foundation that can be laid. That’s a done deal.
Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone. We are told to be careful how we build upon this foundation. We can build Gold, silver and precious stone, or wood, hay and stubble. This Gold and Silver only comes to us one way….through the fellowship of His sufferings. This does not come through vicarious discussions….but personal intimate union with Jesus Christ as we live by the Faith of Christ….

Philippians 3:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Note Paul stresses those who are otherwise minded GOD shall reveal even this unto you.

Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


Who is speaking here? Who do we buy this gold from? Is it for sale that others can sell, or cheaply purchased through discussions , having a head knowledge of this truth but no reality of this evidence.


Notice the word of BEATEN work…. This is beaten by pounding as with a hammer….wrought in. So, it wasn’t just purified through the furnace, but beaten as well.

Exodus 37:17
And he made the candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work made he the candlestick; his shaft, and his branch, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, were of the same:


Proverbs 17:3
The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts

Who do the candle stick represent?

Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


Do some spend their lives in discussions with the opponent? I suppose when the Lord returns, these same people will still be discussing, while others, who have Eyes to see and Ears to Hear the Lords Voice won’t spend too much time discussing the WORD, but OBEYING the word.

Katy


 2008/3/16 12:41
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Opposition

Quote:
Here is what Scripture tells us concerning those who oppose themselves.



Are you hearing yourself speak?

Quote:
Do some spend their lives in discussions with the opponent? I suppose when the Lord returns, these same people will still be discussing, while others, who have Eyes to see and Ears to Hear the Lords Voice won’t spend too much time discussing the WORD, but OBEYING the word.



Time for some plain speaking.

[b]quodlibertarian: n.[/b] one who talks and disputes on any subject

As well versed as you may be there is a continual overlooking of those things which even are suggested. You are constantly either creating a controversy or in the midst of one. Diatribes of scriptural bigotry are leveled far and wide, post over post. Stubborn, haughty and proud. No backing off or considering of others, no forthcoming of fault or error, the accusations that are leveled backfire in your own lap but you have gone deaf from hearing your own speaking. It never applies to your own self.

A defense for everything, another verse in reply. It is sin. Pride. To not point it out would be the greater disservice. How many postings have been casted over with a pale due to your contentious attitude. How many have begged off and now stand outside looking in while you go on. And just how long and how far do you expect the patience here to suffer?

[i]Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.[/i] Isa 58:4


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/3/16 13:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:
As well versed as you may be there is a continual overlooking of those things which even are suggested. You are constantly either creating a controversy or in the midst of one. Diatribes of scriptural bigotry are leveled far and wide, post over post. Stubborn, haughty and proud. No backing off or considering of others, no forthcoming of fault or error, the accusations that are leveled backfire in your own lap but you have gone deaf from hearing your own speaking. It never applies to your own self




Paul said:


1 Corinthians 4:14-16

14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

One of the headings of this article is:

[b]What can I learn from others[/b]

But have we first considered scripture and that comes ABOVE and beyond?


Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and [u][b]learn [/b][/u] of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath [u][b]learned of the Father, cometh unto me.[/b][/u]

John 7:15
And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never [u][b]learned [/b][/u]?

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our [u][b]learning [/b][/u], that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have [u][b]learned [/b][/u]; and avoid them.

1 Corinthians 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might [u][b]learn [/b][/u] in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.


Ephesians 4:20
But ye have not so [u][b]learned [/b][/u] Christ;

Philippians 4:9
Those things, which ye have both [u][b]learned [/b][/u], and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

2 Timothy 3:14
But continue thou in the things which thou hast [u][b]learned [/b][/u] and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
.

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet [u][b]learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;[/b][/u]



And there will come a day when no one can [u][b]learn [/b][/u] this song but those whom GOD has taught!

Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could [u][b]learn [/b][/u] that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

I'm so sorry Mike that you seem to find criticism towards those ...even your remark to Bill, who you in your own pride never think your remarks apply to yourself.

I'm giving a different perspective here that we LEARN of GOD, and not to put too much in the wisdom of men.

God Bless you Mike!

Katy

 2008/3/16 13:38





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