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deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1826
Hemel Hempstead

 Re: JESUS

Firstly this term is new to me!
What do we mean!
Do we love those that Jesus hates?
I see no problem loving people even those who are adversly against me! I love them enough to pull them out of a fire.

If people are ruining the bible so that christian may be unified, I would disagree with them diametriclly.

Job 10:8 - Show Context
'Your hands have made me and fashioned me, An intricate unity; Yet You would destroy me.

Ps 133:1 - Show Context
A Song of Ascents. Of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brethren to dwell together in unity!

Eph 4:3 - Show Context
endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Eph 4:13 - Show Context
till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

What has happened in the UK in unity is churches from different denominations have tried to unify or make out they are in unity! The problem is they are not! and whether they are a church or not.

1Co 11:3 - Show Context
But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Eph 4:15 - Show Context
but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--

Eph 5:23 - Show Context
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Joh 15:4 - Show Context
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

Joh 15:5 - Show Context
I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Joh 10:2 - Show Context
But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Joh 10:3 - Show Context
To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Joh 10:4 - Show Context
And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

Joh 10:7 - Show Context
Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

Joh 10:8 - Show Context
All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

Joh 10:11 - Show Context
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

Joh 10:12 - Show Context
But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.

Joh 10:13 - Show Context
The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.

Joh 10:14 - Show Context
I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.

Joh 10:15 - Show Context
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Joh 10:16 - Show Context
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Joh 10:26 - Show Context
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Joh 10:27 - Show Context
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

What do we gather from these passages that people who are essentially in Jesus are his church as a body cannot b dissconnected from the head else your body does not work.
As the Post said before Jesus is essentially the foundation of the church.
We need him desperatly!! Their is no church other than him


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2008/3/14 21:23Profile









 Re:

AMEN!!! Annie and Dom, thank you!

 2008/3/15 6:36
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: on the art of listening

Quote:
Diane, I know you can't see what's going on in my ears, but I am listening very carefully to my brother Paul. Perhaps that's the trouble.


Surely we cannot be expected to accept that careful listening is ever the trouble. Linn, in your case it would seem that Paul is not near as assured by your self-assurance on the matter. Why do you think he have responded in this way:

Quote:
That doesn't sound very encouraging on my end...



Recently I told one of my children: “Self-evaluation is not a good way to assess ourselves.” Linn, I suggest that Paul would be the better one to evaluate the success of your listening endeavours. Not only that, I’m convinced that you can be richly blessed by him if you are open to pastoral exhortation, in quiet submission.


Linn said:
Quote:
seeing we all think we believe in apostolic Christianity. I don't know how any of us can take the controversy out of that....



This is exactly why I posted this thread! It offers us some useful practical tools so we can know how to move beyond stalemates. That is important, as it is makes the church a strong and unified body. This is not about the superficial unity – you know, were we all just decide to be nice to each other, comfort each other with a few verses, and avoid polemic issues. ( see my quote by Martin Luther King)

Consider this quote from the first section of the “Polemic Theology” article:
… we owe it to our opponents to deal with them in such a way that they may sense that we have a real interest in them as persons, that we are not simply trying to win an argument or show how smart we are, but that we are deeply interested in them--and are eager to learn from them as well as to help them.

There is a practical lesson here. While engaging in a dispute, we are naturally convinced that our highest goal is to assert our own position and take the speck out of the eye of the other. But more and more I am suspecting that this is not God’s highest goal. His goal is about the development of our own character. Our manner of dealing with others says a lot about ourselves – and others can usually see that more clearly than we can ourselves. (Often I only see my foolishness after exposing it in the full view of the public. :-o Then I realize how blind I can be while speaking or writing)

What do you think of my thought here:
In our culture there is a tendency to rely heavily on empirical knowledge (ie knowledge acquired through one’s own sense experiences.) We then draw global conclusions from that knowledge. But really, who of us has the full line on empirical knowledge? It’s impossible! (I think this topic deserves to be expounded)

I just had a brand new idea: There are many out there who are well-equipped to handle matters of polemic theology, and they are doing an admirable job. Perhaps we’d find it more fruitful to learn from them rather than hastily assume roles in areas we are not near as well-equipped as we may think.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2008/3/15 9:14Profile









 Re:

Quote:
… we owe it to our opponents to deal with them in such a way that they may sense that we have a real interest in them as persons, that we are not simply trying to win an argument or show how smart we are, but that we are deeply interested in them--and are eager to learn from them as well as to help them.




Diane, much of this article is based on humanism...political correctness, now being pushed off in the Church as well as the world.

I do see however this idea used to bring together Protestants and Catholics....Mormons and Christians through friendly dialogue.

I also remember a very good comment on another thread when someone asked how to witness to a Muslum....answer......don't go off on rabbit trails...stick right to the heart of salvation...SIN.

This article is written by a Reformed Theologian, and the real JIST of this article is how Calvinists and Arminians can work things out.

I know the greatest **pick up line** Calvinists use is....""Ask me a quetion and I will answer it for you"".

I do believe when the HOLY SPIRIT is in control, we speak SCRIPTURE, and Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE.(((nothing about ours))

Sorry Folks......We compare Spiritual with Spiritual, and some things are non-negotiable.

Then we have one who may have spiritually grown out of some silly ideas, and now because of this *what ever you call it*** article ..... apologizing ...but not for his spiritual growth I hope.

Don't put your faith in the wisdom of men...but in the power of God!!!!

Katy

 2008/3/15 10:49
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
I do believe when the HOLY SPIRIT is in control, we speak SCRIPTURE, and Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE.(((nothing about ours))



You can speak scripture all you like and still give no evidence of the Holy Spirit's control. In fact, it proves just the opposite far too often.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/3/15 11:20Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: A request for warrant

Katy said:

Quote:
much of this article is based on humanism...political correctness, now being pushed off in the Church as well as the world.


Katy, I would appreciate support for your view - with quotes from the article.

Quote:
This article is written by a Reformed Theologian,



How is the fact that he is Reformed problematic?

Quote:
…the real JIST of this article is how Calvinists and Arminians can work things out.


Is this bad? How do you know that Nicole may have an unrighteous motive for writing this article? Do you think the following statement could conceal a less than honorable motive?


As a Calvinist, I may so stress the sovereignty of God that the reality of human decision may appear to be ruled out. Here again, I should feel grateful rather than resentful. The adversative situation may well force me to give better attention to the fullness of revelation and preclude an innate one-sidedness which results in a caricature that does disservice to truth no less than an actual error may do.

Katy, I'm just curious, do you think that there is anything at all in this article that is salveable for yourself, personally?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2008/3/15 11:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:
You can speak scripture all you like and still give no evidence of the Holy Spirit's control. In fact, it proves just the opposite far too often



Mike, I agree. But I said [u]when the Holy Spirit is in control[/u]

Katy

 2008/3/15 11:34









 Re:

Quote:
Katy, I'm just curious, do you think that there is anything at all in this article that is salveable for yourself, personally?



Quote from article:

The first thing that I should be prepared to learn is that I may be wrong and the other person may be right. Obviously, this does not apply to certain basic truths of the faith like the Deity of Christ or salvation by grace.

Lets take this point for example.

Calvinists have a very DIFFERENT understanding of Salvation by Grace. AND according to Nicole, to a Calvinist...according to *Calvin* beliefs....to them this is non...negotiable.

I believe in Salvation by Grace through faith, but NOT Calvinism.

You will also see on many threads here extensive dialogue between these two groups that has NEVER ended with a Calvinist saying....gee, maybe I'm wrong. They will never...and according to this comment...they will never!

So, we see all else is built on this foundation correct?

I believe in eternal security, but not Calvinism.

Diane, many BIBLE Believing Christians believe in their eternal security based on scripture, not Calvinism. Abram Cooper III is one.

What I saw here was interesting. You posted a place where anything goes ((according to some who took this thread that way.... Quote: Now I've found a place where I am welcome,..... and used it to push an agenda....and used this article as his defence not to be challenged.

Is this what you wanted to accomplish?

Personally, I believe anyone who tries to raise the dead...after their souls have passed to either to be with the Lord, or held in hades, can NOT be summonsed back to enter back into their bodies. I call that witchcraft.

Jesus said *I AM* the resurrection, and blessed are those who have part of the First Resurrection.

I will not negotiate THAT belief with anyone either. Sorry David, I love you, but are you raising a dead person without their soul? or isn't this getting in tough with the departed called sourcery, mediums? Isn't this what they do at those 1-900 numbers, palm readers, cristal bowl peepers....

My understanding about these raised people is no one can find them to interview!

Katy

PS, but according to this author only the Deity of Christ and salvation by Grace is non negotiable.

There are many things non-negotiable....and what do I owe someone .....lengthy conversations? No I owe them scripture....

Paul said OWE NO MAN anything, but to love one another.

He also said in Galatians concerning the Lawyers.....not even for one minute!

 2008/3/15 11:58
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: More food for thought

[i]YOUNG and inexperienced people ought to be subject to the aged; for what can be more indecorous than to see a stripling standing up at a church meeting, and, with confidence and flippancy, opposing his views to those of a godly disciple, old enough to be his grandfather? Youth loses its loveliness when it loses its humility. They should hearken with deference and most reverential attention to the opinion of the aged. Nor does the obligation rest here; it extends to those who are equal in age and rank. Church members should be subject to each other; they should not be determined at all events to have their own way—but should go as far as biblical principle would let them, in giving up their own views and personal biases, to the rest of the group. Everyone should hearken with respectful attention to the opinions of others, and be willing to sacrifice his own personal opinion. The 'contention' ought not to be for rule—but for subjection. Instead of haughtily exclaiming, "I have as much right to have my way as any one else!" we should say, "I have an opinion, and will mildly and respectfully state it; yet I will not force it upon the church—but give way to the superior wisdom of others, if I am opposed." There should be in every member a supposition that others may see as clearly, probably more so—than himself.

The democratic principle in our system of church government must not be stretched too far. The idea of equal rights is soon abused, and converted into the means of turbulence and faction. Liberty, unity, and equality, are words which, both in church and state, have often become the signals, in the mouths of some, for the lawless invasion of the rights of others. It has been strangely forgotten, that no man in social life has a right to please only himself; his will is, or ought to be, the good of the whole. And that individual violates at once the social compact, whether in ecclesiastical or civil society, who pertinaciously and selfishly exclaims, "I will have my way!" Such a declaration constitutes him a rebel against the community. Yet, alas! how much of this rebellion is to be found not only in the world—but in the church! And what havoc and desolation has it occasioned! Unfortunately for the peace of our churches, it is sometimes disguised, by the deceitfulness of the human heart—under the cloak of zeal for the general good. Church members should enter into these sentiments, and thus comply with the apostolic admonitions, "Let nothing be done through strife or vain-glory—but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than themselves." Phil. 2:3. "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves." Romans 12:10.[/i]



[i]It is absolutely necessary, in order to offences being removed, that the offender, upon his being convicted of an injury, should make all suitable concession; and it will generally be found, that in long continued and complicated strifes, this obligation becomes mutual. Whoever is the ORIGINAL aggressor a feud seldom continues long, before both parties are to blame. Even the aggrieved individual has something to concede; and the way to induce the other to acknowledge his greater offence, is for him to confess his lesser one. It is the mark of a noble and godly mind to confess an error, and solicit its forgiveness. "Confess your faults one to another," is an inspired injunction.

The man who is too proud to acknowledge his fault, when his conduct demands it, has violated his duty, and is a fit subject for censure. There are some people, so far forgetful of their obligations to Christ and to their brethren, as not only to refuse to make concession—but even to give excuses for their sinful behavior. Their proud spirits disdain even to afford the least satisfaction in the way of throwing light upon a supposed offence. This is most criminal, and is such a defiance of the authority of the Lord Jesus, as ought to bring the individual before the discipline of the church.

We should be very cautious not to exact unreasonable concession. A revengeful spirit is often as effectually gratified by imposing hard and humiliating terms of reconciliation, as it possibly could be by making the severest retaliation. No offender is so severely punished, as he who is obliged to degrade himself in order to obtain a pardon. And as all revenge is unlawful, we should be extremely careful not to gratify it at the very time and by the manner in which we are dispensing pardon. To convince a brother, not to degrade him, is the object we are to seek; and especially should we endeavor to show him, that his offence is more against Christ than against ourselves.[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=18426&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]DUTIES OF CHURCH MEMBERS TOWARDS EACH OTHER(even on Christian Forums) -J.A James[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/3/15 12:15Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,



Katy-Did,


"I do believe when the HOLY SPIRIT is in control, we speak SCRIPTURE, and Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE.(((nothing about ours))"



Katy, I want to take an opportunity here to air something that was hurtfull to me sometime back. I want to do this because I think I should make it known to you, and also because it seems to fit with the topic here.



In the thread titled "This needs attending to:", on page 9, you wrote:


"I've often wondered why Calvinists open their mouth at all. If not to witness, then is it just to boast and stick out their tongue. What they are really doing is slandering God’s Character."



This was hurtfull to me. I'm not a "calvanist", but these words, and others like them, are hurtfull to me.


There are many different backgrounds of believers here. There is so much that many of us probably disagree about. But I hope that we can disagree with each other, without destroying each other. And I think that some of us here are trying to be united in a common purpose, of hoping to see God come to our lives and to our lands.


Thank you for considering this Katy,


Chris











_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/3/15 12:25Profile





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