Honestly, as per the article, I'm trying to understand your sweeping dismissal of a command of Christ 'Raise the dead', which dismissal seems to be on the basis that certain charismatics have over-egged the proverbial pudding. The question is, (surely,) how do we know when to raise the dead, or not raise them; which begs any questions about faith in action (works)?
Hi Linn. Do we even read each other's posts before replying? I mean really [i]read[/i] them? Or do we only glaze our eyes until we see a glowing incitement, and then pounce, disregarding all the material leading up to it and after it? Understand that I indict myself here as well! I am just as guilty (if not more) of this than anyone here.
All the same, there is a post on this thread, one of the first few posts, written by LittleGift (Jeanette) where she nailed the essence of what I was trying to convey. She totally understood my intent, and she was able to express it lucidly and in few words. Linn, why are we still going round and round? Normally, I don't send people to posts I didn't write to more easily understand when I am trying to express, but in this case it is meet.
It's on p.4 :-)
Much of this seems to be in confusion over raising the dead. I've never raised the dead, God hasn't called me yet to do so...but here was my original thought in this thread:
Raising the dead is nothing, laughing like a fool is nothing, being thrown down to the ground is nothing...it's even worse than foolishness [b]if we have not the fruit of the Spirit and all we want is to use these phenomena to generate debates[/b].
As you can see, mine is not a "sweeping dismissal". This goes back to [i]thoroughly, carefully[/i] reading all our posts, to avoid confusion and assuage the temptation to make assumptions.
I'll make a deal with you, Linn. I'll [i]promise[/i] to more carefully and most unbiasedly read your contributions with the ultimate goal to understand your point of view, if you'll do the same to mine. Nothing cheers me more than unity and understanding and peace among the brothers and sisters.
Roadsign, you should be elated! The noble intent of this thread is coming into play!
Paul Frederick West
| 2008/3/14 9:36||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Regret|
Well, nothing like making oneself an example to further a point ...
There is a word that has been stuck lately;
Maybe it needs it's own airing elsewhere but I need to make a confession here. I regret some of the things mentioned here last night. The charge of 'humanism', took something of a derivative and made a muddle of it all. It was a poor way of stating it and a poorer extrapolation to base it upon that term. It was wrong. I regret it. Never intended to cast a pale over all this and yet ...
Also, made a muddle out of 'respect' just as well. There are some good men and women here, some pastors even that contribute here and it is a difficult thing to hear them often taken to task without ... some respect due to them. It is not the contorted 'man pleasing' or the further contorted 'God is not a respecter of persons' but ... if I may not wretch this completely out of it's context;
[i]For he is the minister of God to thee for good ... For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing ... Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.[/i]
Honor to whom honor. And it applies even more broadly, what we owe to each other as it applies here and as this article is trying to also point out.
If it isn't evident enough, a great deal of what was spoken here and carried over in various other postings is just an expression of frustration. Frustration when this setting inevitably takes course into what has been seen time and again over these years as another season of upheaval, strife, contention, ill-will, personal attacks, back biting ... And just as bad is the attempts too often to try and right it somehow, speak to it, mitigate it, mediate ... moderate- "moderators".
It did strike me in a more profound way later on in the evening just how ... impossible this all is when it is looked at seriously. Even after five years now, that this forum has not imploded from the inside out is a miracle of God's grace. There are times when it must seem to those looking into all a bewilderment why the whole thing isn't just shut down, in fact, it has been suggested, even if just for a season of it's own.
But there is a perplexity and complexity to it all. Try as we might otherwise, personal feelings get intertwined (case in point), personal .. outside knowledge of each other is often used against others, though they may know none of it, somehow are supposed to understand these things though they are not privy to it. It is a redundant mention, to couple this with 'factions' and again, unintentionally as they may be, yet to use this as weaponry .. "What you don't know about _____" is, well precisely the point, we don't know! Nor do those who would infer such things know what may be going on back of the attempts to mitigate and somehow keep some controls of the conduct and behavior, attitude (the general trouble) of the participants of this setting. All that without being 'controlling'. It is frankly a marvel. It would be far easier to just 'ban' or remove those bringing turmoil or confusion at every turn yet ... This very article goes a long way in expressing the attempts at being patient and long-suffering with each other and for good reason.
If we do not give place for time and hopefully a measure of allowance to just let things sink in we end up doing the thing I personal hate and yet go on doing anyways ... That is, 'forcing' a confession. It just doesn't work the majority of the time. I do hope that with all that is available here, all the sermons and messages, the articles and even the sharing and chiseling that goes on amongst ourselves that there is truly some ... change going on. Otherwise, we are stuck in gear and spinning our wheels. Time to change, time to ponder, time to ... consider.
Honestly, if we are going to be honest about it, it does come back full circle to the evidence of our praying, our lack of it. It's evident enough. My own folly and loquacity is evidence enough of it. It seems we can, I can harp on it continually and yet the knee-jerk reactions come forth, it spells us, it's telling, it's the proof of it all. Here we are trafficking in Holy things, in eternal matters, from a variety of view point and perspective. In different frames of mind and different, malleable dispositions even in any given moment. Certainly we are going to be at times ... emotional, and overwrought with confusion or giving off a wrong appearance, things are tangled and mangled, tossed and tempested ... grieved, troubled ... besides ourselves. How we tame these animal spirits as I read it recently, control the passions that overwhelm us. The forms and manners of extremisms, the baby and the bathwater, suspicions, accusations ... Oh, for some clarity!
Since I am going on, feeling so reticent to confess and draw out confession. Isn't it truly what we need far more of? Not a belittling of ourselves from so much introspection, but just a forthcoming of ... our regrets? I do think that many of us must have them, "I wish I wouldn't have said that", "I wish I would have just left well enough alone". "That's not really what I meant." But isn't his the very remedy for what ails us?
Pardon the dumping out of all this here, needed to get it off my chest, off my heart. I am concerned more and more about ... perception after all. Despite what I forwarded last night. Truly though, the perception is towards what this site is portraying. Is it glorifying to the Lord? If it isn't ... then it is a deep grievance, It can take some imagination but it also does at times come into the hearing in a variety of ways just what all this looks like, sounds like to those siting back peering into it all. It should give pause to concern. Think of all the eyes upon us as we write. We certainly do not consider enough the Lords looking into it all or we would likely not speak the half of what we do speak. But maybe to lower the gaze enough to our imagination, to the possibilities that do exist. Other churches and their members, other pastors, even other speakers that we may be somewhat familiar with due to their messages being presented here, that they themselves may be peering into all these things.
If we were face to face, in their physical presence .. would we be more .. sober ... careful ... considerate? Does it not give a least a pause, a sense of trembling ... some ... regret?
This needs to come back to Diane's considerations as the questions are being asked. I apologize again for taking these liberties here. Just want to leave off with a couple of notes that have been on my heart of late.
Walking in the Spirit.
"I was in the Spirit on the Lords day"
The evidence of the Holy Spirit, cutting through all the words and commotion and discussion. Do we see the evidence of Him. And acknowledge that. A couple of verses that have been percolating for some time;
[i]That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.[/i] Phm 1:6
"Every good thing". Those we disagree with, those that may cause us some irritability, any good thing, every good thing. That we might recognize those and make mention of them. And just as well, grapple with the reasons why we find those of us irritable in the first place, perhaps "Is it I?" applies more than we know.
Reading through Alexander Whyte's great book on prayer and in one of those interesting moments where one takes a point away far different then was intended ... Those great revelatory moments when scripture may speak in another way, not out of it's context but ... Goodness, speak already!
Luk 11:6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?
His way and manner of drawing off this whole parable is tremendous but it struck me differently.
[i]I have nothing to set before him[/i]
All because I did not pray and so I have nothing to set before you.
Thanks for the opportunity and you bearing with me here. Pray for the man, pray for this site ... pray for one another.
[i]Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[/i]
| 2008/3/14 10:32||Profile|
All because I did not pray and so I have nothing to set before you.
O brother, this jumped out and throttled me. It is true, so true, and it is my sentence here as well. I also confess I did not pray before coming into this thread, and my posts stink of decaying manna. Please forgive me, my brothers and sisters; though my intent here was noble and sober, the [i]fragrance of God[/i] was not upon them, as they had been posted without prayer and earnest consideration.
Forgive me, David, if my contributions here seemed to insult and belittle you. Pray that God would give me more discernment and wisdom as to how and when to post in the future.
p.s. Dear David, I actually love to read Wigglesworth, and I know you are fond of him as well! I have the complete collection of his life teachings in my office library, and I have a link to something you may be interested in. It's an old thread I made when I first joined SermonIndex called [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=11497&forum=35&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=1]Smith Wigglesworth Praying in a Restaurant[/url]. You'll find some very interesting accounts there, one of raising an embalmed body from the dead at a funeral parlor. In any case, I hope you enjoy it, and see that I'm just not some stuffy religionist with an aversion to signs and wonders. Think of me more as a...well, a Puritan who also happens to believe in the gifts and speaking in tongues and miracles, though zealous to see them used in the proper balance of the Holy Spirit and not abused.
Paul Frederick West
| 2008/3/14 10:43||Profile|
Words I happened to find in an essay by Martin Luther King Jr:
"Experience has shown that some of the richest insights into religious truth came when two groups of Christians with contrasting backgrounds wrestle with one another over some fundamental issue, candidly but respectfully, listening for the word God may be seeking to convey to them through their theological adversaries."
| 2008/3/14 12:44||Profile|
Quote:I believe so, but I'll keep working at it in case I could improve. Perhaps you didn't notice the start of your post on p1 which said
Hi Linn. Do we even read each other's posts before replying? I mean really read them?
Quote:Having quoted the rest of the paragraph in your recent reply to me, I'm not really placcated by the way your challenge was based on the controversy it might cause amongst us if we discuss one of Christ's commands, and not at all about the question of how to obey Him.
Raising the dead, laughing revivals? [b]Friend, I agree we should throw these out.[/b]
That's really all I want to say, seeing we all think we believe in apostolic Christianity. I don't know how any of us can take the controversy out of that.... Better get used to it, and learn to stick together while we have the leisure to get to know one another.
| 2008/3/14 17:44|
Friend, I agree we should throw these out.
Hi Linn, I was discussing this with David, if you remember, and not trying to placate you, actually you weren't even part of the equation at the time.
I saw that David was grouping laughing revivals with raising the dead with whatever else decidedly charismatic...and those were [i]his words[/i], that is "throw out". There is great controversy in this, obviously, as the very suggestion of these things was put forth in light of the topic at hand: "polemics". I was merely doing a play on his words "throw out", that's all. One great, big misunderstanding - an attempt at some witt that backfired - and now things are being taken out of context and the confusion is compounded...
Let's lay it down and give it rest now, okay? I'm ready if you are. I repent of posting my thoughts in this thread. I should have prayed first. God bless you, sister.
Brother Paul :-)
Paul Frederick West
| 2008/3/14 17:49||Profile|
| Re: Submitting to God's design|
I believe so, but I'll keep working at it in case I could improve.
Blessings sister! Linn, I have had this sense today too that the Lord is asking you to submit to your brother Paul. Lay down your verbal tools for the time being and simply listen to what God is saying to you through him. Honestly, I dont know why I am saying this, but no doubt it will become apparent in time. I say this with tears.
| 2008/3/14 18:27||Profile|
I thought we were all in this together. Seriously. All threads are linear. Yes, you replied to David and I joined in later. My comment about placcation was to do with your response to me on this page.
Now, going back to p1, there has been a simple misunderstanding. If you look at what preceded David's 'throw out' comment, it did not mean 'let's discard'.
'Wow i have arrived !! finally a home! An actual thread where i am welcome!!
Where do we start???
Lets throw out some possibilities;'
Does this sound as if he was [i]discarding[/i] topics - or, was he [u]suggesting[/u] them?
Diane, I know you can't see what's going on in my ears, but I am listening very carefully to my brother Paul. Perhaps that's the trouble.
| 2008/3/14 19:19|
Does this sound as if he was discarding topics - or, was he suggesting them?
Let me again try to spell this out for you: David was indeed [i]suggesting[/i] these things, and I was attempting to [i]discard[/i] them for the sake of the controversy they would muster on SermonIndex. Brownsville? Laughing Revivals? It was a play on words: [i]"Yes, let's indeed throw them out!"[/i] though it never meant I "sweepingly dismissed" raising the dead as a doctrine. You turned it into that. If I may say so, this is a classic case of you (forgive me, I know I'm not supposed to say "you" according to the polemics article) coming into the middle of a conversation, meddling in something I was trying to work out with another person, and instead of helping, everything is now totally muddled and confused and off track and this thread is just you and I going back and forth. And the world is reading this thread. Sister, this has been done before. A few times. It's almost as if you deliberately feel you must challenge everything I say. Every single post of yours in this thread has been aimed at me, to somehow usurp and confound what I am trying to minister. I directed you earlier to LittleGift's post; sister, have you checked it out? She encapsulated everything I meant, and said it much better than I did - without the verbosity, without the turgid thought, and without all the friction.
I am listening very carefully to my brother Paul. Perhaps that's the trouble.
That doesn't sound very encouraging on my end...
Paul Frederick West
| 2008/3/14 19:39||Profile|
Diane, my heart is racing because I feel as though I am stepping on Holy ground by entering your thread - but I need to let out what is in me stronger than life itself.
I downloaded your article as soon as you posted it.
I can't post anymore after this post - but the Holy ground I feel on this thread and where I feel it's trying to draw us to, is to 'no one' or 'nothing but' [b]HIMSELF~JESUS.[/b]
That is why certain ministries have attracted me so. Such as Chip's - Art Katz' - Richard Wurmbrand and so forth and even my own local Church.
This is what I pray and have been praying since I first came in 2005.
It's NOT about "us" --- and when we see that it is "Not all about us" or "Not about us at all" - then Glory-Forever when HE and HE Only is lifted up.
This quoted post and thread link is not about me - though I know for most, I didn't have to say that.
This is what I pray for this year again. [b]JUST GIVE ME JESUS ![/b]
Brother Everett, right now I'm so caught up in JESUS, all day praying for them up in Canton has got me in tears.
[b]WE NEED JESUS!!![/b]
Brother I can barely speak. Reading what Apollos wrote yesterday and knowing what it is to have HIM allow us to actually sit with HIM in HIS Presence is beyond words. So many days, I've turned to Him and merely whispered, are You there for me to be with and talk to and HE was always faithful to be there and allow me - a wretch like me - to feel like I was part of His Bride. What on earth could be more unimaginable than that?
JESUS-JESUS-JESUS - there is nothing else.
Until we come to the complete end of ourselves and HE allows us to be stripped of everything and we're left to do nothing but cleave to HIM for our very life - we'll only give birth to the wind.
Help me pray brother - Bring JESUS and nothing and no one else to us.
That we'll know HIM and how to come into HIS Presence when we are alone. And take HIM with us when we leave.
Oh just give us JESUS Dear GOD.
Let our Love for HIM increase to the point where we can barely stand it or contain it - without saying HIS Name again and again and again.
Just give us JESUS. Nothing else will do. Nothing else is REAL. No other words but HIS are Real or Reality.
OH JESUS WE LOVE YOU. Please hear the cries of your Saints Dear LORD. Please hear their cries Precious Savior Lord and GOD.
We Love YOU.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=7346&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]fourth post pg 6[/url]
GOD Bless you.
Just give us Jesus.
| 2008/3/14 19:41|