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psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Polemic Theology: How to Deal with Those Who Differ from Us

this is a quote from the article:


"Similarly, in dealing with those who differ, we ought not to split hairs about language just in order to pounce on our opponent because he or she has not used accurate wording. It is more effective to seek to apprehend what is meant and then to relate ourselves to the person's meaning. If we don't do that, of course, there is no encounter because this person speaks at one level and we are taking the language at another level. The two do not meet and the result is bound to be frustrating. If we really want to meet, we might as well try to figure out the meaning rather than to quibble on wording.

Moreover, I would suggest that we owe to people who differ from us to seek to understand their aims. What is it that they are looking for? What is it that makes them tick? What is it that they are recoiling against? What are the experiences, perhaps tragic experiences, that have steeled them into a particular stance? What are the things that they fear and the things that they yearn for? Is there not something that I fear as well or yearn for in the same way? Is there not a possibility here to find a point of contact at the very start rather than to move on with an entirely defensive or hostile mood?"




Oh I get it....all this is like one of those hidden camera deals where everyone is in on it but me.



David

 2008/3/13 15:10Profile









 Re:

Quote:
In verse 3, when some of the Amorites (one of the tribes inhabiting the land God had commanded Joshua to destroy) who lived in the city of Gibeah, and called Gibeonites, heard that Joshua was coming to destroy them, the scriptures tell us they decided to fool Joshua with trickery. They put on old clothes, took moldy bread, old wineskin, worn out shoes and covered themselves with much dust. Then they rode their camels over the hill to meet Joshua and told him that they had come from a far away land, having heard of his great army and his God who was conquering all the nations before him. They said they had come to make a treaty with Israel.



How would this apply to christians today seeing that we are in the new covenant and our warfare is not with flesh and blood? I believe a christian can be decieved into thinking they are being holy but are in fact self righteous for example. They have a spirit but it's not of God but they can be misled into thinking that it is God. Usually other people are the first to notice it but the one who is decieved becomes comfortable with it and can even justify it in their own mind. I see it happen all the time.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 2008/3/13 15:25
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
This has got to be your opinion I have never in my 40 years as a Christian heard the box explained like this. To me the Box is the "law" the law has held many Christian in bondage for thousands of years, Jesus says in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."



Hi Mr.Bill,

Okay, I see where you're coming from, as I also see where Linn is coming from. My point about the "box" was relative to the conversation I was having with David. Many times a quiet life of purity, humility and sobriety in doctrine is thought of negatively as the "box" - especially in the more charismatic circles. There is a thing going around that if you are not radically raising the dead or subscribing to Brownsvillish signs and hysteria and laughing and whatever else, you have lost contact with the "oil" of the Holy Spirit, for such signs are the true indicator that the Holy Ghost is moving upon a person or congregation.

I utterly reject this notion. What I did, Mr. Bill and Linn, is invert the discussion to demonstrate that the true "box" could be a quiet life in Christ, in all balance and proportion to scripture, and I'm showing that being "in the box" in this respect may not be a bad thing at all. The other camp purports that we must "step out of the box" if we want to "fulfill our destiny" (I have no idea what that means), but the box they are encouraging to "step out of" must be regarded as safer than the area we are told to step into, if only by virtue of the litmus test they place upon certain manifestations for "being in the Spirit".

I am simply proposing my view with a twist: from inside the very box charismatics would call me out of! I already know what is "outside the box" and I've seen enough to know how it much it greviously misses the mark.

I would rather call them back [i]into the box[/i] of sound doctrine where there is safety, security, growth, and an increasing knowledge of God's ways. Stepping out of the box in this regard is stepping into unsound doctrine and polluted waters.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/3/13 15:28Profile









 Re:

David, Yes, the oil is a TYPE of the Holy Spirit...period.

And Yes I also agree what you are saying about BOX here......

Many today speak truth by the Holy Spirit, but those in their own little BOX of self defined doctrines/denominations actually *muzzle the OZ*.

We have on other threads the issue of [u][b]Grace[/b][/u]VS Law. The Holy Spirit certainly doesn't anoint LAW.

The word was full of Grace and Truth.....and is called in Hebrews 10...*the Spirit of Grace*.

It was this Spirit of [u][b]Grace[/b][/u] that was rejected by the Pharisees, of which Jesus rebuked, stating, that sin against Him would be forgiven, however sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

Why, because it is by this GRACE we are Saved, and to reject Grace is to reject salvation.

Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the [u][b]Grace[/b][/u] of God was upon him.

Yet those who are still thinking inside their own boxes are rebuking those who have jumped outside the box of Law, and Jumped into the Box of Grace + Nothing.....by faith....

Katy

 2008/3/13 15:30









 Re:

Quote:

Psalm18 wrote:
Quote:
In verse 3, when some of the Amorites (one of the tribes inhabiting the land God had commanded Joshua to destroy) who lived in the city of Gibeah, and called Gibeonites, heard that Joshua was coming to destroy them, the scriptures tell us they decided to fool Joshua with trickery. They put on old clothes, took moldy bread, old wineskin, worn out shoes and covered themselves with much dust. Then they rode their camels over the hill to meet Joshua and told him that they had come from a far away land, having heard of his great army and his God who was conquering all the nations before him. They said they had come to make a treaty with Israel.



How would this apply to christians today seeing that we are in the new covenant and our warfare is not with flesh and blood? I believe a christian can be decieved into thinking they are being holy but are in fact self righteous for example. They have a spirit but it's not of God but they can be misled into thinking that it is God. Usually other people are the first to notice it but the one who is decieved becomes comfortable with it and can even justify it in their own mind. I see it happen all the time.

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.



Ezekiel 14:4
4Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

According to my interpretation of this verse if a christian has an idol in thier heart and they refuse to repent God will allow them for a time atleast to believe that what they have in their heart is from God. Of course in time they will get sick of their idol and realize it is not of God and hopefully give it up.

You can only plead with someone for so long and than the Lord has to chasten them.



 2008/3/13 16:12









 Re: Polemic Theology: How to Deal with Those Who Differ from Us



Now, to enter the discussion a little more deeply on the matter of religiosity, there must be many of us who were desperate to experience God in a deeper way, who either brought a church-going background to our apparent Christian testimony, or who quickly acquired one so that we didn't lose the approval of those with whom we attempted to have fellowship. Yet, amongst that group of outwardly Christian witnesses (by the church-going and the attendance at church activities), ther are those who are not in the least interested in knowing God for themselves if they can wield power within the organisation. It's not until there's a bit of heat, though, that the true hearts begin to show.

Quote:
Observing this over the years has really left a bad taste in my mouth when I hear of "gifts" in Pentecostal circles.

Quote:
but I will continue to warn against charismatic superficiality, and do all I can to prevent debatings on such and vain jangling from prevailing here.

broclint said
Quote:
I can appreciate very much Brother Paul's remarks (coming from a similar background in the Church of God) regarding the direction of what was once a dynamic movement of God which started first and foremost as a hungering and thirsting for personal holiness and total surrender to God, but ... has been emphasized almost to the exclusion of those repeated commands to take up the cross, and self-denial, and to have a servant's heart

Quote:
Think of me as just a loving brother trying to exhort others to "say in the center of the road", and not veer too much to the left or right.

Paul, I now understand because you are a preacher, you are comfortable in a declamatory stance. For other reasons, I am also. But please remember that [i]every[/i]one who posts, is [i]forced[/i] to assume a declamatory stance, however [i]reluctantly[/i]. Or, they include self-defensive comments in advance. Some people would much rather you were able to observe their Christianity in action, hear them at the prayer meeting, or receive a cold drink from them on a hot day, than have to wear their heart on their sleeve out here.

Have you ever had a PM from someone who said something like this... [i]I want to let you know what I think about your post in such and such a thread, privately, in case you think I'm stupid, because if I post in the thread, everyone will [b]know[/b] I am[/i]...? Well, it's been a while, but I have, and recently I've been thinking about all the great brethren and sisters who came here once or twice, and posted pure truth, full of faith and encouragement, and then vanished again. [i]Where are you all?[/i]


It was on my mind to share with you that in my experience of 'the charismatic movement' in the UK, there is, yes, a variety, and I don't go along with everything. But, God seems to put up with a lot, seeing He sees everyone's true hearts.

The cross, Romans 6, new birth and being a new creation was at the very centre of the theology which I mostly sat under in house-churches. 'Gifts' were deemed to be the natural outworking of a life surrendered to God, in obedience to Christ as Lord and filled with the Spirit. But, even when my life did not look like that, God still sought to encourage me with the power of His Spirit to work in me, to bring down the strongholds and exalt Christ as King over me, and to use me in the lives of others.

I believe the body here will never develop beyond a large amorphous bundle, if we keep on crushing every move towards differentiation (of member parts), made by the Spirit. A mature body has clear parts, joined in function through [u]the Head[/u]. True, some parts are joined to and dependant one upon another (such as the forearm supplies power to the wrist), but, there is clear division (for instance, between the hands and the feet), which enables the body to deliver that for which it was created. We need to [u]trust[/u] [b]the Lord[/b] and not [i]fear[/i] the effect of allowing others to mature in [i]their[/i] calling, even if we [i]think[/i] have outgrown that stage ([i]always a risky conclusion, in my view[/i]).

 2008/3/13 16:16









 Re: Polemic Theology: How to Deal with Those Who Differ from Us



This is a continuation of my previous post, just in case anyone wonders. MrBillPro you explain that stuff about the Holy Spirit opening scripture to our understanding like no-one else I know. Amen!

psalm1 said

Quote:
There is no possible way to add polluted oil into the parable.

Look at scripture ! History repeats itself .....they accused Jesus of having polluted oil."he casts out Satan by the power of satan"

"he healed the sick on the sabbath! Everyone knows he cant be of God. No real man of God would break Gods law like that"

So we have it today....to be outside the box like Jesus incurs the ire of the religious establishment.

Could I ask for leniency for those who might not be 'fathers' yet?

[color=6633FF]1 John 2 (3 - 14)

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [i](but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also[/i].
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [i]even[/i] eternal life.
26 These [i]things[/i] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. [/color]


I want also to say in the passing, that however far from sound manifestation of the Holy Spirit people claiming to be charismatic have drifted or been dragged by false shepherds, the word 'charisma' is scriptural; the 'charismata' (as you know), being [i]the graces[/i] bestowed by the Spirit, and I would want here in SI, the word 'charismatic' to be given its original meaning, when arising in our discussions, just as we would want to re-instate the [u]biblical[/u] definition of [i]faith[/i], where it has been hijacked by the Word of Faith movement.

I'm pretty easy going now, having been quite the opposite during the days when I was trying to pull my life into some sort of order, and will-power was very much required to get anything done at all, but it bothers me greatly when genuine questions about biblical ministry are sidelined by those to whom they are not especially relevant because different callings and opportunities rest on their lives.


I realise that in posting all this, I may be a long way behind where the conversation has got to. Thanks for your patience, everyone.

EDIT: Thanks, Paul, for the acknowledgement. I don't know how anyone reading could possibly have guessed the 'where' you are coming from, [i]before[/i] you posted the explanations of your reasons for using the language you chose. I have been taught to reason as the others have put forward, using scriptural language as the common denominator. Normally, thinking 'outside the box' is leaving the confines of received natural wisdom or training. I do completely see your resistance to any interpretation which in meaning seeks to draw men away from sound doctrine and rest in Christ.

 2008/3/13 16:17









 Re:

Quote:
How would this apply to christians today seeing that we are in the new covenant and our warfare is not with flesh and blood?




It applies very much to Christians today!


Leaven, we are warned by Jesus ..***beware of the leaven of the Pharisees***

Again by Paul....

God does not work through the flesh, as the law was for the flesh...pointing to SIN, and our schoolmaster as well.

Yet so many want to legalize GRACE, or co-mingle the two. You are correct, it is spiritual warefare when these two completely different doctrines are at war, just as was in Jesus time.



Legalism is one of the greatest enemies to the Church today...

Beware!
1 Corinthians 5:6
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth(RUINS) the whole lump?

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:8
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.


Katy

 2008/3/13 16:24









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Quote:
How would this apply to christians today seeing that we are in the new covenant and our warfare is not with flesh and blood?




It applies very much to Christians today!


Leaven, we are warned by Jesus ..***beware of the leaven of the Pharisees***

Again by Paul....

God does not work through the flesh, as the law was for the flesh...pointing to SIN, and our schoolmaster as well.

Yet so many want to legalize GRACE, or co-mingle the two. You are correct, it is spiritual warefare when these two completely different doctrines are at war, just as was in Jesus time.



Legalism is one of the greatest enemies to the Church today...

Beware!
1 Corinthians 5:6
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth(RUINS) the whole lump?

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:8
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.


Katy



Amen, I agree I just wanted to get your view on it.

 2008/3/13 16:41
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

My apologies Sister Diane for my "contribution" to this thread...

the full article makes some very good points...

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/3/13 16:41Profile





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