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 Re:

The following verses, from Proverbs 26, are very searching. At first I foolishly thought of v18-19 as an answer to Sister Rebecca, but on reading further, it was obvious that this was for all of us, including myself.

[color=990000]18 Like a madman who throws firebrands,
arrows, and death, 19 is the man who deceives his neighbor
and says, “I am only joking!” 20 For lack of wood the fire goes out;
and where there is no whisperer, quarreling ceases. 21 As charcoal to hot embers and wood to fire,
so is a quarrelsome man for kindling strife. 22 The words of a whisperer are like delicious morsels;
they go down into the inner parts of the body. 23 Like the glaze covering an earthen vessel
are smooth lips with an evil heart. 24 He who hates, dissembles with his lips
and harbors deceit in his heart; 25 when he speaks graciously, believe him not,
for there are seven abominations in his heart; 26 though his hatred be covered with guile,
his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly. 27 He who digs a pit will fall into it,
and a stone will come back upon him who starts it rolling. 28 A lying tongue hates its victims,
and a flattering mouth works ruin.[/color]

[The Revised Standard Version]


Some thoughts:

Quote:
18 Like a madman who throws firebrands,
arrows, and death, 19 is the man who deceives his neighbor
and says, “I am only joking!”

There is danger of this thread being killed, which would be a great pity, for there is something in it for all of us if we would hear what the Lord is saying, and humble ourselves under His hand.

I looked up the word translated "deceives", and it apparently means much more than that:

From Strongs Concordance:
[color=000000]7411 רָמָה, רָמָה [ramah /raw·maw/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 2168, 2169; GK 8227 and 8228; 12 occurrences; AV translates as “deceived” four times, “beguiled” twice, “thrown” twice, “betray” once, “bowmen + 7198” once, “carrying” once, and “deceived so” once. 1 to cast, shoot, hurl. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to throw. 1a2 bow-shooters, bowmen (participle). 1b (Piel) to throw down. 2 to beguile, deceive, mislead, deal treacherously. 2a (Piel). 2a1 to beguile, deceive, mislead, trick. 2a2 to deal treacherously with, betray.[/color]

Quote:
20 For lack of wood the fire goes out;
and where there is no whisperer, quarreling ceases.

I'm not sure about quarreling, but I used to [i]love[/i] arguing! Or at least wanted to always have the last word!

Even last night I was tempted to respond to the end of Rebecca's message, "LOVE YA!!!... " with "LOVE???"

Sister, what you apparently meant as a joke; and some of your other remarks to myself and others, really did come over as rather vicious attack. (That sickening image has been removed, thank God.)

But the Lord knows your heart, and perhaps you meant no harm.

There's a particular sister on this forum who seemed very confrontational and aggressive in manner at first, but eventually I realised her real motive was simply to contend for the Faith - she didn't mean it the way her posts often sounded. After some time on the forum, various pm's and emails, and quite a lot of effort, and no doubt prayer, we are now the best of friends! (I don't think she's been on this thread so far, but will probably laugh if she reads this!)

What I have learned through these verses in Proverbs is that direct attack is not nearly as bad as "whispering", deception, betrayal and other things done in secret.

Sis Rebecca, at least no-one can [i]possibly[/i] accuse you of whispering in secret on this thread! :-P

Quote:
21 As charcoal to hot embers and wood to fire,
so is a quarrelsome man for kindling strife. 22 The words of a whisperer are like delicious morsels;
they go down into the inner parts of the body. 23 Like the glaze covering an earthen vessel
are smooth lips with an evil heart. 24 He who hates, dissembles with his lips
and harbors deceit in his heart; 25 when he speaks graciously, believe him not,
for there are seven abominations in his heart;

As I said, this is far more damaging and dangerous than frontal attack. Although frontal attack is more likely to get you banned!

I find this warning about deceitfulness personally convicting. Not because of [i]intending[/i] harm to anyone, but because I've been in the habit of trying to prove a point, or of defending myself in a "sideways" sort of manner, trying subtly to show a person where I think they are wrong, and trying not to anger them in the process, because of being so very fearful of confrontation - especially face to face.

It's only in recent years that I've finally been willing to let the Lord deal with this fear...

(Not too many years ago, I actually managed to pluck up courage, [i]probably for the first time in my life![/i]) to say the words to someone, "I disagree".

Quote:
26 though his hatred be covered with guile,
his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly. 27 He who digs a pit will fall into it,
and a stone will come back upon him who starts it rolling. 28 A lying tongue hates its victims,
and a flattering mouth works ruin.

This is re-emphasising previous thoughts in this passage, but also showing that a deliberately deceitful and slanderous person will receive the consequences on his own head.

Many a time, while interceding with others over a matter, we have been led to pray that the Lord will expose the evil, in order for it to to be dealt with. Also so that no more folks are deceived, (for example by false teaching).

The Lord knows our hearts, and can deal with every twisted motive - including those we aren't even aware of ourselves.

I find that [i]such[/i] a comfort!

And if we would let Him do this with each of us as individuals, truly these evils will be purged out of the Church!


PSALM 139
[color=990000]1 O Lord, thou hast searched me and known me! 2 Thou knowest when I sit down and when I rise up;
thou discernest my thoughts from afar. 3 Thou searchest out my path and my lying down,
and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou dost beset me behind and before,
and layest thy hand upon me...

...23 Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting![/color]

ISAIAH 40
[color=990000]3 A voice cries: “In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain. 5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”[/color]

JEREMIAH 17
[color=990000]9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately corrupt;
who can understand it? 10 “I the Lord search the mind
and try the heart,
to give to every man according to his ways,
according to the fruit of his doings.”[/color]


Amen!


in Him


Jeannette

 2008/3/4 4:28









 Re:

Quote:

LittleGift wrote:
The following verses, from Proverbs 26, are very searching. At first I foolishly thought of v18-19 as an answer to Sister Rebecca, but on reading further, it was obvious that this was for all of us, including myself.

[in Him


Jeannette



That's for sure. After your last post it's obvious how easy it is to see how you can attempt to be teaching others and end up being the very thing you are teaching against and here you go again off on another tangent. ;-)

It's seems you have alot of time on your hands. I don't know how you do it. that is worrying about others peoples backyards all day. I wish I had that much time to throw away but than that would be foolish for me to throw it away wouldn't it?

I used to sit around all day long trying to justify myself but the only one who ended up listening to me is myself because you can't fool anybody. I would suggest you find something to do that is productive in a good way.

 2008/3/4 4:47









 Re:

Little gift,

Have you ever thought about maybe taking up knitting? My kids and I are having a great time learning how to knit. You would be amazed at how fast kids can learn. :-D

 2008/3/4 5:05









 Re:

Here's a better photo since you didn't like the last one. I wish this were my backyard! :-)

(Had to take the photo off. Rules you know.:))

Actually that last photo I got from another christian forum that day. I thought it was funny at the time! :-D

 2008/3/4 7:29
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Heismypeace,

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_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/3/4 8:44Profile









 Re:

OK. my beautiful photo is off. :-D

 2008/3/4 9:18









 Re:

Quote:
There's a particular sister on this forum who seemed very confrontational and aggressive in manner at first, but eventually I realised her real motive was simply to contend for the Faith - she didn't mean it the way her posts often sounded. After some time on the forum, various pm's and emails, and quite a lot of effort, and no doubt prayer, we are now the best of friends! (I don't think she's been on this thread so far, but will probably laugh if she reads this!)




:-P :-P :-P

Hi Jeannette,

Yep, that was me all right!

And I thank you so much for your friendship, the opportunity to have conversations, and your loving rebukes!

I know it's difficult at first when you join a group where friendships have all ready formed, also not being aware of this close knit family, to be able to discern a new voice as well, wondering if there is meanness, or aggressiveness, or just akwardness in joining in.

Maybe we've all been there at one time or another, if not here, just life in general.

But I do know, through out many posts, and long patience, I've come to find many of you as friends, and vice versa.

I've also learned so very much in relationship with others, and how I was, and maybe sometimes still speak before I think through what I am saying and how it will be received.

I want to publically apologize for offending anyone here, as I know I have....

( However I will never apologize for exalting the Deity of Christ, the Blood, or Grace plus nothing :-P.....) but other than that.....

I know too I have mis-understood others as well.

I think the important thing I have learned is, those on this site are most graceous and forgiving of one another, as we argue AKA Debate issues.

Rebecca, welcome to SI.


Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/3/4 12:11









 Re:

Quote:
There's a particular sister on this forum who seemed very confrontational and aggressive in manner at first, but eventually I realised her real motive was simply to contend for the Faith - she didn't mean it the way her posts often sounded. After some time on the forum, various pm's and emails, and quite a lot of effort, and no doubt prayer, we are now the best of friends! (I don't think she's been on this thread so far, but will probably laugh if she reads this!)




:-P :-P :-P

Hi Jeannette,

Yep, that was me all right!

And I thank you so much for your friendship, the opportunity to have conversations, and your loving rebukes!

I know it's difficult at first when you join a group where friendships have all ready formed, also not being aware of this close knit family, to be able to discern a new voice as well, wondering if there is meanness, or aggressiveness, or just akwardness in joining in.

Maybe we've all been there at one time or another, if not here, just life in general.

But I do know, through out many posts, and long patience, I've come to find many of you as friends, and vice versa.

I've also learned so very much in relationship with others, and how I was, and maybe sometimes still speak before I think through what I am saying and how it will be received.

I want to publically apologize for offending anyone here, as I know I have....

( However I will never apologize for exalting the Deity of Christ, the Blood, or Grace plus nothing :-P.....) but other than that.....

I know too I have mis-understood others as well.

I think the important thing I have learned is, those on this site are most graceous and forgiving of one another, as we argue AKA Debate issues.

Rebecca, welcome to SI.


Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/3/4 12:11









 Re:

Thank you, Jeannette, for sharing those Scriptures. Very good stuff there. I’m just going to pull a little bit out, bring in some quotes, and then focus on the excellent article that Josh (preachparsly) posted by Samuel Brengle – that article really is a must read. Thank you for sharing it, brother.

----

Quote:
Littlegift:
What I have learned through these verses in Proverbs is that direct attack is not nearly as bad as "whispering", deception, betrayal and other things done in secret.




It does far greater, deeper and long lasting damage to do that. If we could only realize the extent of the pain that our brethren experience when we stab them in the back by our whisperings and gossip. It’s a very serious sin, for not only is it disobeying commands regarding slander (1 Peter 2:1) but it is disobedience of the command to love one another. If we love one another we will demonstrate it by our obedience to Scripture in relation to these areas. And that isn't even addressing the issue that it bring's shame to the Lord's testimony! We are representatives of Christ here on earth!!!




Quote:
littlegift:
…21 As charcoal to hot embers and wood to fire,
so is a quarrelsome man for kindling strife. 22 The words of a whisperer are like delicious morsels;
they go down into the inner parts of the body. 23 Like the glaze covering an earthen vessel
are smooth lips with an evil heart. 24 He who hates, dissembles with his lips
and harbors deceit in his heart; 25 when he speaks graciously, believe him not,
for there are seven abominations in his heart;…..

I find this warning about deceitfulness personally convicting. Not because of intending harm to anyone, but because I've been in the habit of trying to prove a point, or of defending myself in a "sideways" sort of manner, trying subtly to show a person where I think they are wrong, and trying not to anger them in the process, because of being so very fearful of confrontation - especially face to face.



And the example given by Samuel Brengle:

Quote:
In reading his life a few years ago, I was struck with his great humility, his sympathy for the poor and ignorant and his zealous, self-denying efforts to instruct and save them, his diligence and fervor in prayer and praise, and his constant hungering and thirsting after all the fullness of God. But what impressed me as much, or more, than all the rest was the way[b] he avoided all argument of any nature, for fear he should grieve the Holy Spirit and quench the light in his soul. Whenever matters of a business or religious nature were being discussed, he carefully thought the subject over, and then expressed his views, and the reasons upon which he based them, clearly, fully and quietly, after which, however heated the discussion might become, he declined to be drawn into any further debate whatever. His quiet, peaceful manner, added to his clear statements, gave great force to his counsels. But whether his views were accepted or rejected, he always went to his opponents afterward and told them that, in expressing sentiments contrary to their own, he acted with no intention of opposing them personally, but simply that of declaring what seemed to him to be the truth.[/b]

In this he seems to me to have been closely patterned after "the meekness and gentleness of Christ" (2 Cor. x. 1), and his example has encouraged me to follow a like course, and so "keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph. iv. 3), when otherwise I should have been led into wranglings and disputes which would have clouded my soul and destroyed my peace, even if the Holy Spirit were not utterly driven from my heart.



That is an amazing example found in the life of Marquis de Renty. He did not waver on what he stood for, but calmly stated his position and refused to be embroiled in hot debate over it. Wow. Thanks for sharing the lessons you have also learned, sister Jeannette.


Quote:
Littlegift:
The Lord knows our hearts, and can deal with every twisted motive - including those we aren't even aware of ourselves.

I find that such a comfort!

And if we would let Him do this with each of us as individuals, truly these evils will be purged out of the Church!



Amen! This reminds me of some quotes from [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=19585&forum=44&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1]Matthew Henry[/url] that relate to judging one another,

[i]"Now if Christ paid so dearly for His dominion over souls and consciences, and has such a just and undisputed right to exercise dominion, we must not so much as seem to invade it, or entrench upon it, by judging the conscience of our brethren, and arraigning them at our bar." Matthew Henry

"A believing regard to the judgment of the great day would silence all these rash judgments." Matthew Henry[/i]


On to the article, [b]Don't Argue by Samuel Logan Brengle[/b] (all quotations taken from that article

Quote:
"Remember, if you want to retain a clean heart, don't argue!" – Commissioner Dowdle



That is such a good principle! Ah, what soil it brings to our hearts to proudly argue and stubbornly refuse to follow in Christ's example of humility and meekness.
“Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.” Matthew 11:29

“Quench not the Spirit.” 1 Thess. 5:19

Quote:
And so, all through the Gospels, I fail to find Jesus engaged in argument, and His example is of infinite importance to us.



Quote:

It is natural to the "carnal mind" to resent opposition. But we are to be "spiritually-minded." [b]By nature we are proud of our persons and vain of our opinions, and we are ready to stoutly resist him who sets himself against either us or our principles. Our object at once is to subdue him -- by force of argument or force of arms, but by some means subdue him.[/b] We are impatient of contradiction, and are hasty in judging men's motives and condemning all who do not agree with us. And then we are apt to call our haste and impatience "zeal for the truth," when, in fact, it is often a hotheaded, unkind and unreasoning zeal for our own way of thinking. Now, I am strongly inclined to believe that this is one of the last fruits of the carnal mind which grace ever subdues.

But let us who have become "partakers of the Divine nature" (2 Pet. i. 4) see to it that this root of the carnal nature is utterly destroyed. When men oppose us, let us not argue nor revile nor condemn, but lovingly instruct them -- not with an air of superior wisdom and holiness, but with meekness, solemnly remembering that "the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient" (2 Tim. ii. 23-25).

I find that often, after having plainly, fully and calmly stated my views to one who is opposing the truth as I see it, I am strongly tempted to strive for the last word; but I also find that God blesses me most when I there commit the matter into His hands, and by so doing I most often win my adversary. I believe this is the way of faith and the way of meekness. While it may seemingly leave us defeated, we generally in the end win our foe. And if we have true meekness, we shall rejoice more over having won him to an "acknowledging of the truth" (2 Tim. ii. 25) than in having won an argument.




Those last three paragraphs speak very profoundly for themselves (btw, if you haven't read the entire article yet, DO!). Ah, for God to work out all carnal workings of the flesh and conform us to the image of Christ Jesus, our glorious Lord and Saviour! He is worthy!!!

[i]Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/i]


 2008/3/4 12:20









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
:-P :-P :-P

Hi Jeannette,

Yep, that was me all right!

However did you guess who I meant? :-P

Quote:
And I thank you so much for your friendship, the opportunity to have conversations, and your loving rebukes!

Thank you so much for this, Katy, you have comforted me more than you know - just when it's sorely needed.

Ecclesiastes 4:10
[color=990000]9 Two are better than one...
10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up[/color]

Quote:
I know it's difficult at first when you join a group where friendships have all ready formed, also not being aware of this close knit family, to be able to discern a new voice as well, wondering if there is meanness, or aggressiveness, or just akwardness in joining in.

Maybe we've all been there at one time or another, if not here, just life in general.

Yes.

Quote:
But I do know, through out many posts, and long patience, I've come to find many of you as friends, and vice versa.

I've also learned so very much in relationship with others, and how I was, and maybe sometimes still speak before I think through what I am saying and how it will be received.

Me too.

Quote:
I want to publically apologize for offending anyone here, as I know I have....

( However I will never apologize for exalting the Deity of Christ, the Blood, or Grace plus nothing :-P.....) but other than that.....

I know too I have mis-understood others as well.

I think the important thing I have learned is, those on this site are most graceous and forgiving of one another, as we argue AKA Debate issues.

Rebecca, welcome to SI.


Love in Christ
Katy

Amen to all, Katy, thank you again. :-D

Love in Him

Jeannette

 2008/3/4 12:55





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