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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : We need to cover head covering

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Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:


murrcolr wrote:

Quote:

[b]Why is it that Religion always tries to oppress of women?
[/b]



As you know, I do not agree with headcoverings, but I don't see wanting woman to wear head coverings would be putting woman in oppression. I see this practice as cultural but not biblical mandated.

There is order between male and female and that order IS biblical, which should not be fought against. Head coverings is a debatable subject, hence the debate on it.

As for religion oppressing woman, who knows. In today's American culture (for those of us in America and/or influenced by America), the "religious" church oppresses everyone by allowing anything that goes. Woman are far more active and "in control" in most backwards churches then there should be (again, on biblical order).




_________________
Christiaan

 2008/2/12 12:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Why is it that Religion always tries to oppress of women?



I have to agree with you here... religion does always seem to oppress women. No doubt.

HOWEVER, scripture is very clear about the role of men and women in regards to the church, in marriage, etc.

Women are forbidden to teach men in the church. Women are forbidden to be pastors or elders. This is not to oppress them. It is so that there is divine order in the church and in Christian families, and Paul is very clear about why and how this order came to be. It is because of the fall.

To say or believe otherwise is then rebellion against God's Word, which is rebellion against God.

But also, it is not to be oppressive. Jesus certainly did not oppress women. Nor did He ignore the divine order that His Father established after the fall. He did not oppress the woman at the well, or the woman caught in adultry, or Mary Magdallan... He treated them with love and respect. But He also kept God's order in regard to the sexes as well. Notice none of the 12 Disciples were women, or were the 13 Apostles.

We have to approach these subjects with the balance that is found through-out scripture.

Krispy

 2008/2/12 13:07
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Acts 17:22

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very [b]religious[/b] in all respects.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Paul stood in the middle of the court and said, "Men of Athens, I see that you are very [b]religious[/b].

King James Bible
Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too [b]superstitious[/b].

American Standard Version
And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus, and said, Ye men of Athens, in all things, I perceive that ye are very [b]religious[/b].

Bible in Basic English
And Paul got to his feet on Mars' Hill and said, O men of Athens, I see that you are [b]overmuch given to fear of the gods[/b].

Douay-Rheims Bible
But Paul standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too [b]superstitious[/b].

Darby Bible Translation
And Paul standing in the midst of Areopagus said, Athenians, in every way I see you given up to [b]demon worship[/b];


So using the bible to define religion-- superstitious, demonworship, given to much fear of gods(plural).

Christianty and Religion are not the same.

Christianty is a relationship with God where he becomes your Father.

There are those who do try and turn Christianty into a religion thinking they have to dress a certain way to please God and add a lot of does and don'ts.

Putting a thing on you head that you would wipe your nose with will not get you any favours with God. It won't impress him the least bit.

Yes we should dress modestly as not attract attention to your body both [b]men[/b] and [b]women[/b] but that should come out from the heart and should not be forced on anyone.

[b]Remember we are justified by faith not works[/b].


_________________
Colin Murray

 2008/2/12 13:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Frankly, in my humble estimation, debating head coverings is kinda like debating which side of the ark the elephants slept on.

:-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P :-P

 2008/2/12 15:20









 Re:

murrcolr... murrcolr... murrcolr...

Words can not express how painful it was to have to read thru all those perverions... er, I mean versions of the Bible. I think the KJV sums it up just fine without help from the "others". :-)

Quote:
Christianty and Religion are not the same.



No one here will argue that with you since I think 99.9% of us agree with you.

Quote:
Christianty is a relationship with God where he becomes your Father.



Actually, it's the other way around. [b]John 1:12[/b] [i]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name...[/i] (But thats semantics... basically you are correct)

Quote:
There are those who do try and turn Christianty into a religion thinking they have to dress a certain way to please God and add a lot of does and don'ts.



This is very true too... but the flip side is that most Christians turn freedom into license and ignore the clear commandments of God to His believers.

Quote:
Putting a thing on you head that you would wipe your nose with will not get you any favours with God. It won't impress him the least bit.



First off... I called it a doylie earlier, and most folks realize I'm merely using humor. But there are some who are truly convinced that wearing a head covering is an act of obedience... and right or wrong, it's the attitude of their heart that matters. [b]Obedience[/b] is what impresses God. And if a woman chooses to wear a head covering for no other reason than that she wants to be obedient to her Lord and Savior... son, God is impressed.

And telling women who do wear head coverings for the right reasons that they are wearing snot-rags on their heads... that doesnt impress God. Or me. There is a big difference between a doylie and snot-rag, my brother.

Quote:
Yes we should dress modestly as not attract attention to your body both men and women but that should come out from the heart and should not be forced on anyone.



Absolutely... I agree with you.

Quote:
Remember we are justified by faith not works.



You're preaching to the choir, brother. I think most folks here have figured out this little nugget of truth. This website is not exactly "Christianity 101".

Krispy

 2008/2/12 15:34
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

Dear murrcolr,

If I follow your logic, Paul just branded himself as a legalistic demon worshipper and undoes what he taught in Romans about justification by faith.

Did you ever consider why Paul taught the head covering in 1 Cor 11 in the first place? If the covering was the woman's husband or her hair in the fellowship, I think all his exortations are next to pointless because you would rarely find a women in her right mind shaving her hair.

The law has been fulfilled in Jesus. The covenant of grace is a even higher standard. In the old covenant you were allowed to hate your enemy as long as you do not kill him, in the NT you have to love him.

Headcovering is not in the Mosaic law, it was instated by Paul who is the foremost propagator of salvation by faith.

There is a reason behing Paul's teaching and it should be followed then. Truth meant to set us free, not into bondage.

Philip

 2008/2/12 15:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:
in the NT you have to love him.

This is another law. If you have to love anybody it's a law. If you have received the Spirit of God it's His love for your neighbour that is coming out of you, not out of your 'have to'.

If I "have to" give to the poor, it's not out of love that I am doing it, I am doing it because of my importunity. (I was forced to do it)

 2008/2/12 16:20
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Please I grew up in a town where there are lots of these people. They never talk to you never mix with you and thats when you are a Christian.
Never mind when you where a sinner.


[b]What else goes along with head covering[/b]


Things Exclusive Brethren can't do
The activities below are forbidden for members of the Taylorite Exclusive Brethren because they are too worldly:

watching television
listening to the radio
visiting places of entertainment
reading newspapers
reading fiction
using computers and the internet (they believe that these are being used by 'the man of sin' referred to in the Book of Revelation)
using mobile phones - or any other device that uses radio waves
owning pets (these rules have been relaxed and some members are now said to own pets)
remarrying after divorce, even if they are the innocent party
taking out life assurance
going to university (this exposes young Brethren to morally unhelpful influences)
standing for political office
voting in elections
bearing arms (though Brethren do serve in the non-combatant corps of the armed forces in times of war)
Contact with outsiders is limited
Members of the Exclusive Brethren are very limited in their contact with outsiders. Taylorites must not:

visit other churches
join any other religious organisation
join a trade union
join a professional organisation (this excludes members from professions such as medicine and pharmacy)
join any group that includes people outside the Exclusive Brethren
live in the same building, including apartments and semi-detached houses, as outsiders (this means that members can't share a house with a spouse or with children if the spouse or child has been expelled from the Exclusive Brethren)
share a driveway with an outsider
share private drainage facilities
marry outside the Exclusive Brethren
Many Exclusive Brethren work in Brethren-owned companies in order to reduce contact with outsiders. If they leave, or are expelled from the Brethren, they have to give up their jobs as well as their family and their home.

There are several Taylorite innovations that Jim Taylor Jr added to the list of dos and don'ts for members. He instructed them to:

marry early
be clean shaven (men)
keep hair short (men)
not to wear ties (men)
keep hair uncut (women)
wear white or blue scarves (women)
start communion services at 6 a.m.
Withdrawing from
Members who break the rules are likely to be withdrawn from. This means that they are banned from worship meetings and will be ostracised by members of their own family and other Exclusives.

They can lose their home and, if they work for an Exclusive company, their job.

The Exclusive Brethren only withdraw from a member if they commit a serious sin and will not repent about it. They believe that they are following the teaching of St Paul in doing this:

But now I have written to you, if any one called brother be fornicator, or avaricious, or idolater, or abusive, or a drunkard, or rapacious, not to mix with [him]; with such a one not even to eat.
1 Corinthians 5:11
Remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves.
1 Corinthians 5:13
'Shut up'
Members who sin can also be 'shut up'. This is based on the Biblical procedure for the treatment of lepers, and involves being isolated from family and friends and only allowed to see specially chosen church members until local church leaders believe that God has forgiven the person.

It's not quite as drastic as it sounds, since the person may be allowed to work and to have a telephone and a car, but it is psychologically stressful.

[b]A form of Godliness without the power[/b].


_________________
Colin Murray

 2008/2/12 17:00Profile
bluinos
Member



Joined: 2005/2/4
Posts: 78


 Re:

Quote:
in the NT you have to love him.



Perhaps

It is a commandement

 2008/2/12 17:04Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:


Dear murrcolr,

Thank you for sharing that. Now I see you in a completely different light.

May be for you head covering is associated with
the sort of legalism you just described.

You see, I came out from a liberal charismatic church where there was little understanding the holiness or fear of the Lord. I was involved in the Toronto Blessing movement and prophetic movement, WoF, seeker sensitive, Kingdom Dominion, Spiritual warfare and other nonsense.

I was misunderstood a lot when I talked about holiness and fear of the Lord in my former church.

Both legalism and license is carnality. The carnal will always object the spiritual, like Cain who slew Abel.

I have seen so often that people from a legalistic background fall into license and the people who come from a babylonic watered down Christianity fall into legalism. The pendulum does not have to swing the other way.


Philip

 2008/2/12 18:05Profile





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