| Poster | Thread | theopenlife
Member
Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926
| | Re: | | Dorcas wrote,
Quote:
One thing is certain, it cannot come through doctrinal compliance, but through the Holy Spirit.
Total agreement here. The Holy Spirit unifies the Church upon essentials; the Second Coming of Christ will unify the Church in all things peripheral.
I cannot expect to have entire doctrinal unity with a fresh-born saint, but I am already one with him because Christ prayed it so! (John 17) Regeneration is true unification. We are born again into one body.
Back to the original subject...
Perhaps some of my sisters ought to be wearing coverings on their heads, but I can think of more than a few times I needed one on my mouth. We need to be meek and cautious as Ccchhhrrriiisss said, taking even the possibility of God's ordinances seriously, and not hotly trouncing upon what may become our beliefs tomorrow.
In a number of areas my views are backwards to what they were two years ago, and now I regret the arrogance with which I propounded my former views as if I had the final word to end all arguments.
Besides salvation by grace through faith, few subjects are so immovable in my judgment that I cannot speak softly when I declare my firm opinions about them.
The Holy Spirit is leading us into all truth, but our arrival will not come in this life. |
|  2008/2/14 20:49 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Dear Brother - You've said just now that the Holy Spirit is leading us into all truth. One of my favorite scriptures and I've sought Him for Truth for 32 years. Even on these smaller issues.
I think what may have set some off was this quote -
"Our church does not practise head covering although some women do. For me head covering is the outward display of an inward conviction about godly authority. [b]The reason we have so many objections and find this [u]commandmend[/u] so difficult to introduce in our churches is I think is because of the confusion Satan has caused in the perception[/b] of true manhood and womenhood in the world and in the church. [b]Head covering seems to be a small and "nasty" commandment to obey so that many think it is not that important.[/b] If you practise it you may quickly be branded as legalistic and narrowminded. I think our attitude to head covering reveals a lot about our understanding of godly authority."
Brother Philip, that was a heavy post. You did call it a "commandment" and indicated Satan's activity in some of our lives if we don't obey this one "commandment". And that we who don't, call anything in His Word "nasty".
See? This is why some may have gone off in defending the opposing viewpoint.
Bottom of page 7.
I think we all should be lenient on this one.
I said I would wear one if I was at a Church that practiced this while "praying or prophecying".
Your title reads - "need" to cover this topic.
That goes along with the title "commandment" that you wrote above.
Maybe if those words "need" and commandment hadn't come up - Jim wouldn't be mad at Colin now.
Unity as Krispy said on "non-essentials" - but this quote above tells me that - anything that is a Commandment from our GOD is an Essential.
We need to be fair to each other.
I'm all for head-coverings for those who wear them and I'd fight for their Right to wear them.
GOD Bless His Body.
Edited correction. |
| | 2008/2/14 21:05 | | murrcolr
Member
Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
By your logic the Apostle Peter was a Pharisee. Lets take a look at some of what this Pharisee had to say using your logic.
My logic tell me how do you get to the point that I think Peter was a Pharisee. I pointed out that Peter said a woman should adorn the inner man with meekness and a quiet spirit. He understands God, he knows God and what he is like. He knows God is more interested with your inner man your heart than your outward man.
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"Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands" (what religious bondage this Peter places on the poor woman...).
Thats are your words not mine
Quote:
"Do not let your adorning be external" (dont twist this to imply that a head covering is an external "adornment" and fits in this context either).
If head covering is not external then what is it? Hahahahahahaha dont twist this Hahahahahahaha
The context is Authority because head coverers say it has nothing to do with Culture, Tradition and or the hair is not the covering but about Gods Authority. To establish a matter we should not just look at one scripture but look to others to clarify and establish the truth. Peter is speaking to wives about submission to authority. He says dont let your adorning be external but an inward sign.
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"Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." (are you saying we have to earn the right to be heard Peter, dont you know we are only heard because of Christs blood)
The key to that scripture hinges on these words showing honor to the women since they are heirs with you. The woman is a joint heir with us even though she is a weaker vessel (physically) she is our equal in grace of life. He then says if you dont honor her, your prayers will be hindered. Check.....for any man who cant figure out why your prayers are hindered are you honoring your wife.
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The dangerous thing about what you are doing friend is what I call using trojan horse debate tactics. That is, build a case against the law (which of course WE ALL agree with) then slip in the false statement that head coverings are a work of the law. Cleverly disguised arguments indeed.
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law (which of course WE ALL agree with)
Gal 3:24-25 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [b]But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor[/b]
Cleverly disguised arguments indeed. Oh that I had a brain that could do such a thing. I find it hard to spell never mind come out with cleverly disguised arguments. I am only trying put across what I see to be the truth.
Your thinking is still based on the law. Does your God keep a sinner in bondage and burn him in hell cause he is just not good enough, or is he like my God. Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me I once was lost but now am found, was blind, but now, I see. T'was Grace that taught. my heart to fear. And Grace, my fears relieved. How precious did that Grace appear? The hour I first believed. Through many dangers, toils and snares we have already come. T'was Grace that brought us safe thus far and Grace will lead us home.
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I am not sure if you do these things willfully, but otherwise this is a great thread that many, including myself, have been sharpened and challenged by.
Thank You
Well that was my point to challenge you then when you are fully upset the religious covering goes and what you really think comes to the surface. Your thinking is based on law.
Matthew 15, "Then there come to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. And he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall a matter be established.
The law says two or three witnesses shall a matter be established.
Apart from what Paul says in Corinthians where else in the New Testament is it mentioned where women should have there heads covered.
It says it only once, there is only one witness (Paul teaching in Corinthians where he says hold fast the traditions) that could/or could not promote the head covering doctrine. According to the law this is not enough to establish the truth.
To try and say that heading covering doctrine knows becomes a law which Narrowpath did at the start of this thread is indeed breaking the law.
As it cannot be established by the law as there is only one witness.
Quote:
Narrowpath said;
The reason we have so many objections and find this commandmend so difficult to introduce
Head covering seems to be a small and "nasty" commandment to obey so that many think it is not that important.
I love, worship, reverve, fear, obey and adore God because because I have been forgiven much. I did not get forgiveness because of what I did or did not do. I shouldn't have been given anything.
Oh that day with my bloodied wife lying next to me on the bed. She should have been in hospital but didn't go cause she did not want me to get in trouble. I looked to God "I don't want to be like this anymore. Change me" I said. I was filled with the Holy Spirit on my bed and then spoke in tounges.
It was 3 months later before I was going to church but I had changed. The socail services took the kids off the at risk register because they where no longer at risk. I was a new creation no longer in comdenation. Here in Gods Grace I stand.
I desevred hell but he loves me. I have have been forgiven much so I love much.
_________________
Colin Murray
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| | 2008/2/15 6:13 | Profile |
| | Re: | | "Your thinking is based on law."
No it based on the the same grace the apostle Peter taught. Not an empty, mental grace, but a radicall transforming grace of the Holy Spirit. Again, if a women is convinced by the Spirit that the head covering is for her and she obeys it, this is because of the inward love for Christ not an outward law. She does nothing more then the women who doesnt wear fancy adornments because of an inward love for Christ... you are actually acting as the jugmental pharisee in falsely accusing heart motives of a devote women of God.
murrcolr - I do want to say it is obvious that you are writing based off your past experience with abusers of grace. This has jaded your judgment on this matter, though it helps me understand where you are coming from. You have no idea what the Holy Spirit of God is doing in His truly called out ones, regardless of if they wear a covering or not. You are the one judging unrightously based on outward appearance.
-Jim
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| | 2008/2/15 9:01 | | murrcolr
Member
Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
jimdied2sin wrote:
"Your thinking is based on law."
No it based on the the same grace the apostle Peter taught. Not an empty, mental grace, but a radicall transforming grace of the Holy Spirit. Again, if a women is convinced by the Spirit that the head covering is for her and she obeys it, this is because of the inward love for Christ not an outward law. She does nothing more then the women who doesnt wear fancy adornments because of an inward love for Christ... you are actually acting as the jugmental pharisee in falsely accusing heart motives of a devote women of God.
murrcolr - I do want to say it is obvious that you are writing based off your past experience with abusers of grace. This has jaded your judgment on this matter, though it helps me understand where you are coming from. You have no idea what the Holy Spirit of God is doing in His truly called out ones, regardless of if they wear a covering or not. You are the one judging unrightously based on outward appearance.
-Jim
Yes that right my experience with people who practices this are that they dead, boring and religious. They seem to have a different spirit than the one I do.
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You have no idea what the Holy Spirit of God is doing in His truly called out ones, regardless of if they wear a covering or not.
Please read this and see how you are lifting yourself up above me.
Quote:
You are the one judging unrightously based on outward appearance.
Matt 15:17 Perceive ye not, that whatsoever goeth into the mouth passeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
_________________
Colin Murray
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| | 2008/2/15 9:57 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I am done here. May the Holy Spirit lead us in all truth and keep us from errors on the right and on the left. |
| | 2008/2/15 10:01 | | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | I just found this thread last night for the first time....kept me from sleeping well. I wanted to share my convictions on this doctrine but I had a beloved who reminded me how tired I was and needed to get to bed!
As I was thinking about this most of the night I wondered how I should respond? Philosophically? With Biblical exposition? Perhaps I will go for the latter because God will always have the last word on any issue that deals with Scripture. And I will not copy/paste anyone else's writings although I will copy/paste Scripture.
1 Corinthians 11: 1-16. (NASB)
Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
Paul is advising people to imitate him! Can you rightly tell someone to follow Jesus like you do? Quite a mouthful, wouldn't you say? But the Holy Spirit inspired him to write this. Then he proceeds to compliment them on how they remembered him and that they keep the traditions [i]"just as I delivered them to you."[/i]
v. 3: But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
Seems to me a thorough understanding of this eternal principle will illuminate the verses following.
God (Elohim - literally Gods) consists of three persons: The Father, the Son - Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Gen. 1: 26 says: " Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;" Note the plurality of 'us', 'our'. Now Elohim made man in his own image, male and female created he them (v. 27). Scripture informs us that Adam and Eve were made in the image of God. We also learn from studying the scriptures that this 'Image' does not mean physical likeness in the sense that God is sexed. Now through out the OT we read a lot about the 'Jehovah' God. Scholars will tell you this Jehovah is none other then the pre-incarnate Jesus. Little is spoken of the HS in the OT, however, once Jesus appears He spoke often of him saying it is essential for him to go away so the Holy Spirit can come, and that His ministry will be great. Throughout the entire Scripture you will see the unity, the teamwork that existed in the godhead: the Father, the son Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The Father acted as the CEO of the three. In actuality one reads little about the Father. Jesus was and is the central figure. Jesus, while on earth received his instructions from the Father. Jesus also says the Holy Spirit will speak those things he hears. The point we see here is the unity, the teamwork that exists in the godhead of three persons. Each had a different function, all worked together for the good of themselves and ultimate mankind. There was absolute harmony.
Now, Elohim created male and female to operate in the same manner: in his image we are created. We are created to function in harmony, unity as they do. Think about that! But what happened? A beautiful creature that God created convinced Eve to question God's directive and Adam allowed her to listen to it and so this unity was broken. The result was a curse on both of them.
Now Paul sets forth the order of headship in this verse: God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman. Now how are we to respond to this eternal order of things? We must remember this order did not original with the fall: it was right there in the creation. But man sinned so we have another dimension to deal with here.
Now let us go on..."Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head" - need any more clarification? Simply put, a male who prays or prophecies with his head covered dishonors his head - could be his own head and Jesus who is his head. (Have you even been to a commencement address at a state university and when prayer was said, the males would remove their caps but the girls left them on? Noticed this at Mississippi State University a few years ago.) And the woman how is she to acknowledge her head? v.5: " But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved." In other words, if the woman does as the man she is dishonoring her head! If she does not want to cover her head, she is to shave it! Since this is dishonorable, cover it.
Now I need to skip a few verses because this is getting too long. But we need to see why the woman needs to cover her head: "Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels." Ah, have a symbol of authority on her head! Wow! So woman has authority? It says so! But how does one have authority? By being under authority, just as Jesus demonstrated while on earth: he was subject to the Father, took his instructions from him and acted only on them. Like one person said: "If you want authority, you must be under authority!" So, now the woman in order to have authority should wear a head covering for the sake of the angels. I will not expand on the possibilities of this concept except to say I think there is some awesome power here available to the godly, obedient woman. Angels ministering to women! Can you get that? does that not about make you tremble in fear and delight that God would regard his lowly handmaidens as such? Amen!
So, how are we to exercise our authority? By listening to those over us: "how can I be of best use to you", "how can I help you?" "What do you want me to do?" (A practical point: my DH and I grow tomatoes hydroponically. He says he could not do this without me helping because I notice the small things which can make a difference in success or failure. Now my DH, on the other hand, cares for the mechanical which to me is out of my sphere of expertise - and perhaps ever capability of learning! We have learned to not downplay any concerns the other has in what is observed. This modus operandi has taught me a lot about submission, unity, teamwork, headship, cooperation - both working for a common good.)
v. 11:However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. These verses would clearly spell out that the woman is not inferior to man, they are one and are to function as one with God being the head of both.
Some have suggested that for a female to be in submission to men makes her inferior, subjects her to abuse. Well, if that happens, SHAME ON THAT MAN! That is not at all what Paul is inferring. I have witnessed those who appear to have received convictions that a female should wear a head covering then proceed to abuse the wife! That man is not a godly man!
v. 16:But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God. Paul informs the reader that if one is inclined to be contentious we have no other practice nor have the churches of God.
Ladies, Gentlemen, brothers and sisters, wearing a head covering provides a female with lots of opportunities to witness that males do not have. Since I wear one which cannot be construed as an hair ornament I have had many opportunities to speak for my LORD. Strangers will recognize it as having religious significance and will come and share concerns "pray for me" or whatever. This happens regularly to females who are obedient to this scripture.
May God be honored and praised!
ginnyrose
PS: If any respond to this post, I will be gone most of the day and cannot respond. My tomatoes keep growing and require pruning. God bless all of you.
_________________
Sandra Miller
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| | 2008/2/15 10:08 | Profile |
| | Re: | | He_Reigns said : Quote:
The reason we have so many objections and find this commandment so difficult to introduce in our churches is I think is because of the confusion Satan has caused in the perception of true manhood and womanhood in the world and in the church.
Amen! Along with a great many other subjects as well.
Thanks for your post. :-) |
| | 2008/2/15 11:11 | |
| | Re: | | Ginnyrose,
Great post. two questions:
Paul says that Christ is the head of the man. and the man the head of the woman.
Isn't Christ also the head of the woman? do women need a male intercessor between them and Christ?
Second question: Pruning tomatoes in February?? I gotta learn about this! (though i don't think it will work in Minnesota.)
bub |
| | 2008/2/15 11:33 | | theopenlife
Member
Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926
| | Re: | | GinnyRose, thanks for taking the time to respond. I agree with much of what you said but have differences in little areas. For instance, regarding angels, I'll quote Nee:
Quote:
"For this cause ought the woman to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels (v. 10). The Bible does not specify what is to be used for the covering; it only states that the head, where the hair grows, should be covered. Why should the head be covered? Because of the angels.
I often am amazed at this marvelous teaching that the sisters should have on their heads the sign of authority for the sake of the angels. We know the tragic history of how some of the angels sinned. Satan rebelled against God. Why? Because he desired to make himself equal with God. In other words, the angel Lucifer attempted to expose his own head before God and refused to submit to His authority. In Isaiah 14, Satan constantly reiterated, I will. And thou saidst in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God and I will sit upon the mount of the congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High (vv. 13-14). Right in this passage we see an archangel falling to become Satan. Revelation 12 further shows us that when Satan fell, one-third of the angelic force fell with him (Rev. 12:4). Why did the angels fall? Because of their not being subject to the authority of God the head but trying instead to expose their own heads
Today woman has a sign of authority on her head because of the angels, that is, as a testimony to the angels. Only the sisters in the church can testify to this, for the women of the world know nothing of it. Today when the sisters have the sign of authority on their heads, they bear the testimony that, I have covered my head so that I do not have my own head, for I do not seek to be head. My head is veiled and I have accepted man as head, and to accept man as head means that I have accepted Christ as head and God as head. But some of you angels have rebelled against God. This is what is meant by because of the angels.
I have on my head a sign of authority. I am a woman with my head covered. This is a most excellent testimony to the angels, to the fallen and to the unfallen ones. No wonder Satan persistently opposes the matter of head covering. It really puts him to shame. We are doing what he has failed to do. What God did not receive from the angels, He now has from the church. Because some of the angels do not submit themselves to the authority of God and of His Christ, the world is subject to great confusion. The fall of Satan has caused much more trouble than the fall of man. But, thank God, what He failed to get from the fallen angels, He has obtained from the church.
When many of the sisters in the church take the place given to woman and learn to cover their heads, they send out an unspoken word of testimony to the angels in the air, to the effect that God has obtained in the church what He desires. Because of this, woman must have on her head a sign of authority, a testimony to the angels."
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| | 2008/2/15 15:20 | Profile |
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