since nobody took a stab at it I would say the resurrection happens almost simultaneously with the rapture.
The two groups meet in the air
| 2008/2/9 16:48||Profile|
In the light of your many other posts, and their careful choice of words, I'm not sure why you would use the word 'indiscriminate' about the way God's wrath will be delivered on the earth. I could ask you to find scripture for me, and I'm sure there will be some verses containing the word all, however, I put to you here, that God is well able to save one and destroy another.
Yes, I carefully chose these words. During this hour of [i]Great Tribulation[/i] distinguished as the time in which God pours out His wrath upon the Earth there will be moments of [i]indiscriminant[/i] judgment. I used the word [i]indiscriminant[/i] in order to signify what seems to be quite clear: Entire geographic portions of the Earth will be destroyed. It doesnt appear that God will always simply discriminate against unbelievers with His wrath. For instance, a third of Earth will be burned up in an instant. Also, a third of boats in the sea will be destroyed. A third of the waters will be poisoned by what appears to be an asteroid (Wormwood), which will kill many people. A third of mankind will be killed by the four angels bound at the Euphrates River. This is just a portion of the various methods of Gods wrath that will be poured out upon the Earth. There will be seven seals, seven bowls, seven trumpets, etc
These displays of wrath are upon entire portions of the Earth. It doesnt appear that many people would live through 1/3 of the entire Earth being destroyed by the fire of God especially if you live right in the middle of that destruction!
More than anything, I prefer to remain cautious before I go about and proclaim my beliefs as the final word of the matter. While I am not accusing anyone in particular of being guilty of such behavior, there is a tendency (at least from my perspective) of post-tribbers dismissing every other viewpoint or perspective as a vicious [i]lie from the pits of Hell[/i]. Do you see how silly it is to make such a final, ultimate stand on the matter? If the teaching of Biblical prophecy was so universally [u]clear[/u], then why are there so many different variations of teaching amongst sincere believers? Even amongst post-trib believers, there is no universal consensus concerning the exact timing of Biblical prophecy. Some in the post-trib crowd believe that believers will be supernaturally protected from all portions of Gods wrath. Others argue that believers will be forced to endure the wrath that is poured out upon entire portions (such as a third) of the Earth.
I lean toward a "pre-wrath" rapture. Make no mistake I am not completely certain of a "pre-wrath position. When I first came to the Lord, I thought that I was pre-trib, simply because all of the Assembly of God ministers would show me from the Scriptures. After a while, however, I defected toward more of a post-trib view. However, after many hours of study and prayer, I began leaning toward a pre-wrath perspective in regard to the coming Wrath of God (I just thought that I would mention this sense so many post-tribbers are quick to almost boast about the years of prayerful research that they have put into this issue; Just wanted them to know that some of us poor pre-wrath believers have too).
If I did buy into the [i]post-trib[/i] argument, it would certainly be that believers would endure the hour of Great Tribulation while God miraculously spares any of us from the effects of His wrath. Why? Simply put, I believe that this is promised in Scripture. We are NOT appointed to suffer His wrath (I Thessalonians 5:9). We are promised to be kept from the hour of trial that will come over the entire Earth (Revelation 3:10). Currently, however, I feel that this protection will come by a taking of Christs bride by our Bridegroom (similar to the manner of Jewish marriage custom a bride is suddenly taken to the place prepared for her by her groom).
I would never force a pre-trib or pre-wrath position upon anyone. I wouldnt ram such a belief down the throat of another believer by calling every other viewpoint a [i]lie[/i] simply because I may be convinced of a different manner. I would also never question the spiritual condition of those who do or do not believe in a similar manner. This is by no means a defense of such a position. Rather, I am a testament to a believer -- motivated by truth -- who cannot see the timing of the rapture as being clearly and completely identified by the Scriptures.
I am bothered by the post-trib believers who feel that a belief in a pre-trib rapture indicates any of the following:
1. [b]"Easy" believism:[/b] It is easy to point a finger at believers who share different views than some of us. There are even some, like Brother Kato, who use "prophetic" rhetoric to almost indict the spiritual nature of a believer based upon their views about the timing and manner of the Lord's return. Some even use the word "deceived" when speaking of believers in "pre-trib." Just because a believer leans or is convinced of a "pre-trib" rapture is by no means an indication that the believer has a flawed relationship with Christ. To assume this is error. Rather, it can simply be indicative that such believers arrived at a different conclusion.
2. [b]Prosperity:[/b] While I lean toward a "pre-trib" rapture, I despise the methods, beliefs and manners of the modern "prosperity" message. A belief in a "pre-trib" rapture does not indicate that such believers feel that the Church will not experience heavy persecution or tribulation. Rather, these believers feel that the Church will be removed from the "hour" of tribulation of God's wrath -- just as Noah was protected from the flood, the Israelites were protected from the plagues, and Lot was protected from fire. During the tribulation, the seals will be opened and the trumpet judgments will be sounded. Multitudes will be destroyed by the BLANKET JUDGMENT OF GOD upon this world. In an instance, a third of the Earth and a third of the sea will be destroyed BY GOD. There can be no protection of believers from this. The "pre-trib" rapture is the removal of believers from such judgment of God. Until then, believers will endure the tribulations and persecutions of men and the devil (even as Job endured).
3. [b]"Pre-trib" believers are less than sincere:[/b] While this is usually not articulated as such, it is often implied within conversations and discussions. I have never met a pre-trib believer who holds such a belief in order to "feel good" about not having to go through tribulation. That is just plain silly. Most of the pre-trib believers that I know hold to their beliefs only after serious study. Yes, there are some who simply "believe because they are told." But the same thing can probably be said about many post-tribbers. Besides, most pre-trib believers are certainly aware of the tribulation that we must endure in this world. They simply distinguish between the wrath of men and Satan versus the wrath of God.
What makes me "lean" toward a pre-wrath taking away of the Church?
There are several things. Here is the basic chronological breakdown of events as embraced by most pre-trib believers:
1. [b]Things get bad on Earth[/b] - Tribulation by mankind and Satan. Anti-Christ is possibly be revealed during this time (or immediately after the rapture).
2. [b]Rapture[/b] - Sudden, instantaneous twinkling of an eye catching away where one is taken and another is left.
3. [b]Hour of Great Tribulation made great by Gods wrath[/b] Three and a half or seven year hour in which all mankind must endure the multiplied wraths of man, Satan, and worst of all, God. During this time, entire portions of the Earth (and heavens) will be destroyed. Many people around the world will be killed when God destroys a third here and a third there. However, many, many people will also be saved during this time. Some will actually survive until the end.
4. [b]Second Coming[/b] Christ returns in the clouds with the saints (those who had died and those believers who were taken the first time around) at Megiddo while every eye shall see Him. Satan is captured and bound. Christ sets up His Kingdom on Earth, setting us over as rulers over the world.
5. [b]Millennial Reign of Christ[/b] We rule with Christ over the inhabitants of the world that are still alive. Death has been bound, so that a person will live in similar manner to Genesis.
6. [b]Last Battle[/b] Satan is released for a short time to in order to try and deceive those living on Earth (including those who remained alive at the end of the Hour of Great Tribulation, and their physical descendants).
7. [b]Final Judgment[/b] Satan captured. God judges all mankind. Death and Hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
8. [b]Destruction/Recreation[/b] The universe is destroyed (or at least the destruction of the Heavens and the Earth). God creates a New Heavens and a New Earth. We live with God for Eternity.
Besides the arguments in the meaning behind the verses that obviously speak about the coming of the Lord, there are several verses that seem to indicate a precedent of believers protection from God's wrath (Genesis 6, Genesis 16:18-33, I Thessalonians 5:9, Revelation 3:10).
The timing of the Lords return is also a secret. Not even Christ is aware of His return, as this knowledge is only known by the Father (Mark 18:32). If Christ (who IS the Word of God) does not know the timing of His return (which seems to be fairly understood by believers as being either three and a half or seven years following the commencement of the Hour of Great Tribulation), then why should believers feel that they can justify such a certainty? In the [i]pre-wrath[/i] perspective, Christ does not know the timing of the rapture (or sudden, instantaneous taking away where one will be taken and the other left). However, Christ will be quite aware of the timing of His return (Second Coming) to the Earth. Likewise, believers are unaware of the exact timing of the Lords return (Matthew 24:42-44), even though we can realize the rapidity of it by the fulfillment of events around us (Hebrews 10:25).
An interesting verse for discussion is found in II Thessalonians 2:
Quote:Just who is this who will be [i]taken out[/i] of the world in order for the Wicked (most likely, the Anti-Christ) to be revealed?
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Anyway, it seems [u]clear[/u] to me that the issue is not [i]entirely[/i] [u]clear[/u]. Whenever I speak to friends (both pre-wrath and post-wrath), I make them aware of all possible scenarios about the Lords return. But when it comes down to it, it really doesnt matter to me. If the Lord chooses to rescue believers from the hour of His Wrath upon the Earth so be it! If we are appointed to endure Gods wrath so be it! Either way, we are privileged to know and fellowship with Christ! I am, however, bothered by those who want to point the finger of heresy at those with whom they disagree.
The bottom line is that we should all keep our eyes upon the Lord. We should be watching for His return! If we do, and we truly know Him, we will remain in Him. Regardless of whether we are appointed to suffer the wrath of man, the wrath of Satan and/or the wrath of God), we will still have inexpressible peace in Christ Jesus our Lord!
By the way, I will probably post an interesting article that I found that gives a pretty good indication about the idea of a [i]pre-wrath[/i] "rapture." It lists the common arguments against such a notion, and then provides intelligent rebuttals. I provided it before, but someone here on SermonIndex scoffed and mocked me for presenting someone else's words (although they didn't even mention the words actually found in the article). I'll try to get it together soon.
| 2008/2/9 18:07||Profile|
It all happened more than two thousand years ago and the dead in Christ until his coming and resurrection did meet Him in the air, even king David. Why do you think the prophets were sent to the two tribes of the House of David in Judah? The whole book of Isaiah is about the culmination of that age and the coming of a new heaven and a new Earth.
Why do you think we on this side of The Death Burial and Resurrection of Christ needed a New Covenant?
Jesus is the King of His on Royal House, The House of God, not a building,. A kingdom that is filling the whole world and will last for ever.
Seek ye first the Kingdom Of God.
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the HOUSE OF ISRAEL know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Jesus Christ The Lord Of Lord And The King of Kings.
| 2008/2/9 18:24||Profile|
Quote:Thank you brother, it's so good to hear truth being spoken, it's encouraging. There is more scriptures proving that all prophecies are fulfilled then the heresies that abound today.
It all happened more than two thousand years ago and the dead in Christ until his coming and resurrection did meet Him in the air,
| 2008/2/9 19:57|
Hey, I had so much fun at the Nursing Home today that now I feel frisky.
Preterism is a lie.
| 2008/2/9 21:35|
Edmonton Alberta Cda.
Would you please show scripture to back up your babble.
Blessings Greg :-o
Edit. The scripture from John 6 that I presented , from the mouth of Jesus, state that the resurrection is "at the last day". He did not say tomorrow, or 2000 years from the last day as you suggest. ???
| 2008/2/9 23:14||Profile|
| Re: End Time Revival / Harvest ?|
Thank you for your reply. I feel your confusion is partly [i]because[/i] you choose to add 'indiscriminant' to the word. You [i]did[/i] say 'indiscriminate' in your earlier post.
Quote:There is nothing in the words of Jesus to remove us from [i]tribulation[/i], and Rev 3:10 is the only verse I could see which implies a trial may be avoided. Other verses state clearly that we will be [i]tried[/i]. But, we are to be of good cheer during tribulation, because He has overcome the world in which we will experience it.
During this hour of Great Tribulation distinguished as the time in which God pours out His wrath upon the Earth there will be moments of indiscriminant judgment. I used the word indiscriminant in order to signify what seems to be quite clear:
The promises of wrath in scripture [i]do[/i] mean different things, which Eli Barnabas expounded briefly in an article last year, and I don't pretend to have studied this exhaustively. But we have this promise:
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that [u]believeth not the Son[/u] shall not see life; but [u]the wrath of God abideth on him[/u]
Certainly, I wish to affirm that my Father knows exactly where I am, what I need and how to give it and to sustain me, such that I cannot attribute to Him any lack of discrimination or error, even when He may be angry.
I don't believe angry means [i]out of control[/i], most especially not when it is [i]God[/i] who is ministering it according to His [u]righteous[/u] will.
And yes, I realise I haven't tied these thoughts to a time of Christ's return.
| 2008/2/9 23:32|
| Re: End Time Revival / Harvest ?|
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Context of use.
Jesus unto his disciples that were standing alive on the earth at the time he spoke the words above that some of them would not see death until His returned and the establishment of His Kingdom.
New Testament subjects of The King of Kings are allowed to fight with the sword of truth as a weapon for His strength is made perfect in my weakness.
| 2008/2/10 1:01||Profile|
| Re: End Time Revival / Harvest ?|
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God, which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles, that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not, behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, and hast made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth.
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, honour, and glory, and blessing.
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
| 2008/2/10 1:18||Profile|
| Re: End Time Revival / Harvest ?|
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little, for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest and this is the refreshing yet they would not hear.
But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept line upon line, line upon line, here a little, and there a little, that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us, for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves.
Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place and your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take youF for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Give ye ear, and hear my voice hearken, and hear my speech.
Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground? When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place? For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him. For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin, but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod. Bread corn is bruised because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen. This also cometh forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.
| 2008/2/10 1:55||Profile|