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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Church and The Tribulation -- Zac Poonen

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psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Annie, yes this is what must be asked. And since it is impossible to fit all the events into a comming at the end of the trib. then there is no question that there is first a rapture and then a second comming at the end of the trib. period.

1th5; 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

rev 3;10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Luke 21;36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.



David

 2008/2/5 14:56Profile









 Re:

The Lord Jesus told the Pharisees in John 8:56; “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see [u][b]MY DAY[/b][/u] : and he saw it, and was glad.”

Jesus Christ said that Abraham saw (perceived) [u][b]HIS DAY - MY DAY[/b][/u]. How did Abraham “see” His Day? God revealed Christ’s Day to him; hence, Abraham saw the Day, by faith, and was “glad.”


Abraham saw in a vision when he was to sacrifice Isaac, the resurrection.....that is the DAY Abraham was glad to see. The Day of our Lord Jesus Christ. The 8th day of circumcision was a sign of this NEW DAY.

When we worship Jesus Christ on the first DAY of the week, we celebrate the Resurrection Day.

Those today who are Born Again, and raised up together with Him are of the DAY....Resurrection Day....the beginning of the NEW Creation.


Not OT be confused with **The day of the Lord** that terrible day. Abraham certainly wasn't glad to see THAT DAY!

Katy

 2008/2/5 15:22
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Annie, Chris, David, Katy and all,

Not going to get into the fray. Because I have already posted on this subject a few months ago. Just to say that the two words that seem to be so significant if you study them through the whole of scripture is "last trumpet", and the word tribulation itself (looking at the Greek root and how it is variously translated). Mega tribulation... is a long way from the wrath of God..the devil and his crowd can do their worst and it will only turn out for our good.... but the wrath of God, Moses asked, who can withstand. We are not appointed to wrath, true, but the tribulation that Jesus warned about was not His wrath, but the devil's and the world's tribulation against the saints.

David mark this one down as another one that we do not agree on, but will still love one another till we see that I win :-).

You said in one of the threads that you had studied this for 30+ years. Well here's hoping you will have enough years to catch up with a few more of us, and by that time you may know some stuff :-P

I know this is a serious subject and I am by no means making light. I do believe however that those who will try... try to lose all their preconceived notions and simply read slowly the Lord's answer to this very question in the three Gospel's that so specifically answer the disciple's questions... disciples BTW who were certainly representative of those who would be ready for whatever, you will change your views like so many of us have who were reared with the notion that we would be swept away sans trib.

Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2008/2/5 15:29Profile
SimpleLiving
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Joined: 2008/1/11
Posts: 375
Minnesota, USA

 Re:

Someone here, in an earlier post, said that the Bible "clearly states..." (and then posted their view.) Since this debate has been on-going for more years that any of us have been alive, I think it's safe to say that it's not "clearly stated."

I agree with Tears_of_Joy. Even when I held the pre-trib theory without checking it out for myself. We won't know the exact day and hour but we will know when the time is at hand. Look through-out history and you'll see that God has a tendancy to let the saints know when things were going to happen. (I'm at work and don't have referenced readily available, I apologize.)

As for theories, or doctrines, there are very wise and respected Bible teachers and preachers that hold varying views on the subject. Knowing that, I don't think this issue will be resolved in this thread. 8-)

Having just come out of a background of having been deceived for so many years, here's my take on the matter: I enjoy this discussion and reading other people's views. But, my question is this: How many of you have actually taken the time to seek God diligently on this and feel that you've heard back from Him? There's a difference between doing that and just reading/studying the scriptures and deducing your own conclusions.

That's the approach I'm about to take on the subject. I'm going into this neutrally. I have no preferences as to how I would like it to be. I will simply seek God. He's the God who answers prayers, so, I'll be excited to see what He says.


_________________
Keith

 2008/2/5 15:35Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Quote:
How many of you have actually taken the time to seek God diligently on this and feel that you've heard back from Him? There's a difference between doing that and just reading/studying the scriptures and deducing your own conclusions.



That is a very good question Brother Kieth, and I can honestly say that I did seek God on the subject, especially in view of the fact that as I began to search the scriptures there were too many questions that were totally unresolved to me in the pre-trib rapture theory. The pastor whose funeral I just recently preached had been preaching from the time I was born and I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was a man of God who lived a very holy life. I lived across the street from him for 14 years. So I was very reluctant to even approach him on a subject that questioned something that he had previously preached although he had not for some time preached on the subject. Finally I approached him and he did not at all seem surprised but said that God had been dealing with him on the subject also. We agreed to pray and search the scriptures and set a time about a month away to come back together and compare what we had found.
To make a long story short, we were both perfectly agreed after that month of research, and have both publicly apologized to the church for being in error and confessed that we had accepted the current teaching without the kind of research and prayer that should have been done on the subject.

That said, it is not a matter of 'what God showed me'. It is a matter of every man working out his own salvation in the fear of God. It is the matter of the Berean principle for each of us. And I appreciate and encourage your attitude to seek and search till you know all that you can know regarding the subject.

(And this is not an argument nor meant in any way as a proof for anyone... [i]sola scriptura[/i] Let the Word of God speak for itself)

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/2/5 15:49Profile









 Re:

Hi Bro Clint! Amen!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi David. Just wanted to look at a few of your scripture references ...

Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will [u]keep thee from[/u] {see note}the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. {[u]Same as John. 17:15[/u], keep thee/them from # 5083, means to watch: as a warden; guard. Not take out of or away from, but guard}
Rev. 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take [u]thy crown.[/u] {2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me [u]a crown[/u] of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, [u]shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.[/u] }


Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luk 21:36 -
But watch ye (agrupneite de). Agrupneō is a late verb to be sleepless (a privative and hupnos, sleep). Keep awake and be ready is the pith of Christ’s warning.

That ye may prevail to escape (hina katischusēte ekphugein). First aorist active subjunctive with hina of purpose. [u]The verb katischuō means to have strength against[/u] (cf. Mat_16:18). Common in later writers. Ekphugein is second aorist active infinitive, to escape out.
{One cannot "escape" in a rapture 'by their own strength' but this verse is calling for perseverence to endure and escape the "snare" of those days}

To stand before the Son of man (stathēnai emprosthen tou huiou tou anthrōpou). That is the goal. There will be no dread of the Son then if one is ready. Stathēnai is first aorist passive infinitive of histēmi. Robertson's Greek.


And you quoted - Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, [u]shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.[/u]
Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.


The verses about His returning "in the clouds" on the previous page. And yes, He'll return to Olivet. Zec_14:4


Enjoying this also David. Thank you! ;-)

Maranatha!

 2008/2/5 15:54
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi broclint...

Quote:
Just to say that the two words that seem to be so significant if you study them through the whole of scripture is "last trumpet", and the word tribulation itself (looking at the Greek root and how it is variously translated). Mega tribulation... is a long way from the wrath of God..the devil and his crowd can do their worst and it will only turn out for our good.... but the wrath of God, Moses asked, who can withstand. We are not appointed to wrath, true, but the tribulation that Jesus warned about was not His wrath, but the devil's and the world's tribulation against the saints.


But isn't this just the point? The "tribulation" that believers will experience during the "Great Tribulation" or "hour of God's wrath" will be bad -- perhaps as bad as what is described in Hebrews chapter 11 (getting sawed in two, stoned, etc...). But the wrath of God is something entirely different. When God pours out His wrath indiscriminantly upon the Earth, entire portions of the Earth will be destroyed (i.e., 1/3 of the creatures killed, 1/3 of the Earth burned, etc...). Will God protect his people FROM this event -- or will God protect his people IN this event? Is this what you're saying?

There is no record in Bible prophecy (that I have ever seen) that shows that God will save a few people while His wrath is poured indiscriminantly upon entire portions of the Earth. It is my inclination from the Scriptures that the Lord might protect us by taking us out of the world before God's wrath is so indiscriminantly poured.

No one is saying that believers must believe this way (in a pre-wrath "rapture"). All I am saying is that is at least plausible. There is no need to have people scoffing at such beliefs (either pre-trib or post-trib) in a condescending manner. How is it condescending? Just check out the posts that seem to express concern about our eternal condition for accepting the possibility of a "pre-wrath rapture." I take it all with a grain of sand, but some act as if they are speaking inarguable words of God in regard to this issue. Is that proper? Can anyone be so 100% certain that a "rapture" might not take place?

Like I said, I [i]lean[/i] toward a belief in a pre-wrath "catching away" in which believers who chose to follow Christ will be protected from the wrath to come. However, I am aware of the possibility that such a "rapture" might never take place. I am fully prepared to face persecution, tribulation and death -- even if it were handed out by the Wrath of God. Why is it that so many post-tribbers seem to feel that pre-tribbers are not prepared to face such tribulation for the Lord?

I agree with Simple: This debate will not be won on this thread. But it would be nice if people on both sides of this issue could express themselves without an "[i]I know the truth and you do not![/i] type of attitude. I'm not saying that this is the intent of anyone, but it does come across as rather condescending when someone feels so 100% confident that they can call our beliefs or leanings "[i]a lie[/i]."

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/2/5 16:05Profile









 Re:

Could I go off topic just for a moment and ask a personal question, just for my own understanding or attempt at understanding -- may I ask you Chris how old you are now? I used to know when I first met you and you had your own website - but I can't keep track of everything about everyone, and barely what day of the week it is.

I mean no harm by asking - quite the contrary actually.

Love.
peanuthead

 2008/2/5 16:17
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

HE_Reigns...

Does it really make a difference in this discussion, sister?

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/2/5 16:26Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Brother Chris,

I agree with Keith also, that it will not be settled on this thread, and I refer to my last post that it must be a matter of prayerful consideration for each of us... there are a whole host of things that we are to "settle it in your hearts, therefore". Like another thread where Bro. Mike B. said for us to be ready for "whatever". I think that is wise counsel.

The only problem that I see is with those who are so adamantly expecting a catching away "before" being so disillusioned by the severity of something akin to the holocaust that it fulfills precisely what the Lord asked "nevertheless when the Son of Man comes will he find faith on the earth?"

The fact that righteous and wicked can both perish at the same time is established in
Ezekiel 21:1 - 3 (NKJV) 1And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2“Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem, preach against the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel; 3and say to the land of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am against you, and I will draw My sword out of its sheath and cut off both righteous and wicked from you.

And (here I go, I SAID I was not going to get into the fray :-( ) the prototypes in scripture in which there definitely was a time of tribulation for the saints while at the same time wrath upon the wicked is the tribulations against the Children of Israel prior to their exodus... pretty good picture actually. Plagues on the Egyptians while there was safety upon those who listened to and knew and had a relationship with Moses. Second prototype would be the days of Daniel especially in the challenge for all the world to worship the image whereas the three said basically to their tribulators (made up word) "go for it". It ended as the future will end with beast worship humiliated and those who were willing to lay down their lives victorious. But as they said, and as we must say, "either way, we will not bow".

Just some thoughts.... I am away from home and at the hospital so I am lame without access to much but what is on the surface of my tired brain... one reason I am not into this...:-D

This thing I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, and that is that our faith is going to be tested one way or another before we get out of here... so whatever we face, the Lord Jesus Christ, the One revealed in scripture, the Creator, CANNOT BE DEFEATED BY CREATURES... so let us all keep the faith, regardless of long or how short we are required to remain faithful.

Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2008/2/5 16:26Profile





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