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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Church and The Tribulation -- Zac Poonen

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 Re:

Once again the problem is with pulling a few scriptures from here and there.

We are resurrected "at His Coming" and those coming "with Him" are those Paul said, "the dead in Christ shall rise first - THEN we who are alive and 'survive' will be caught up together with them IN THE AIR".

Context and having every Scripture that pertains to "those days" must be before our eyes.

Is Zac Poonen arrogant for writing what he has on Revelation or Ryle or the many others?

Most importantly - why is there so very very much Scripture on "those days and His Day" in His Word?

 2008/2/5 12:09









 Re:

Hia Brother Preach.

First we have the Seals opened and the last seal lets loose the Seven Angels with the Seven Trumpets - with the seventh trump come the vials ...

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up [b]the wrath of God.[/b]

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of [b]the wrath of God[/b], who liveth forever and ever.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of [b]the wrath of God[/b] upon the earth. Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore [u]upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image.[/u]


There are some of us who do believe that we are caught up at the seventh trump - in the "air" - AS the vials are being poured out and some because of verse 16:2 believe they'll be protected through the wrath - nevertheless - we all agree that we are resurrected AT His Coming.

Let me know if I didn't answer as you've asked.

Bless you!

 2008/2/5 12:17
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

We know Paul told us...the Church..that we would meet HIM in the clouds, therefore the Rapture of the church Jesus will not set foot on earth.





Isn't this the same thing Jesus said?

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man [b]in heaven[/b]: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [b]in the clouds of heaven[/b] with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with [u]a great sound of a trumpet[/u], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

To me, this looks very similar to what Paul said.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from [b]heaven[/b] [u]with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:[/u] and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2008/2/5 12:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
Quote:

We know Paul told us...the Church..that we would meet HIM in the clouds, therefore the Rapture of the church Jesus will not set foot on earth.





Isn't this the same thing Jesus said?

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man [b]in heaven[/b]: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [b]in the clouds of heaven[/b] with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with [u]a great sound of a trumpet[/u], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

To me, this looks very similar to what Paul said.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from [b]heaven[/b] [u]with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:[/u] and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.




Great post Preach - the Cross-Reference to 1 Thess 4:16 that you gave above is --

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Very Good!

Can't Wait!!!

 2008/2/5 12:23
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Annie , I agree it is good to look at all scripture.
You are wrong about the return of Jesus for his bride . It is a surprise to the remnant and all others.
Note the parable of the 10 virgins.

Matt.25;6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Con cerning the "bride" and "place"

It is you that is trying to "fit" events.

I dont think you can draw that concusion without a major stretch.

The Holy city being referred to in ch.21 is an actual city with walls.

1) the bride is in heaven in ch 19 and she has become the wife.

2) Jesus told the disciples Matt26 29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

The point is Jesus went "up" into heaven to prepare a place.

We find the white horses the bride,the "place" and the marriage supper all "up" in heaven.and she is referred to as the wife all in the same breath.


Now fast foreward to ch21 9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I dont know what is proven here except to confirm everything i have brought forth.

You may be trying to place the marriage supper of the lamb in ch21?

Nobody reading that would come to that conclusion.

Also note rev21;9.............wife......descending out of heaven.


David






 2008/2/5 12:31Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth forever and ever.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image.


There are some of us who do believe that we are caught up at the seventh trump - in the "air" - AS the vials are being poured out and some because of verse 16:2 believe they'll be protected through the wrath - nevertheless - we all agree that we are resurrected AT His Coming.

Let me know if I didn't answer as you've asked.



Do you believe this wrath being poured out is before or after his coming/our gathering?


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2008/2/5 12:35Profile









 Re:

Hi Brother Preach.

This is where most post-trib folks may differ in opinion, as I said above because of Rev 16:2 as posted.

We all see that we are resurrected AT His Coming - but some of the best believe the vials over-lap the Trumpets - while others believe the vials are poured out AS He is Coming in the clouds and we're resurrected to meet Him in the air AS He is coming and pouring out these Judgments upon the earth.

Either view is alright with me - as long as one sees the multitude of verses that show Only One Coming of the LORD and that that is when we meet Him in the air.

Good discussion.


I'll take some time to reply with Scripture David, if that's O.K.. Better to do it off-line because it's long.

Thank you!

 2008/2/5 12:53
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Annie, I cant reconcile matt24 with1th 4. You are trying to make two separate events into one.


They dont fit in any way.

you are saying gathering the elect IN HEAVEN, through angels, is exactly the same as gathering the dead from graves by Jesus?


1th 4;13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Please note you are also comparing an event of "comfort" 1th4;18, with an event "shall all the tribes of the earth mourn"




There are many many other points to this . One of which is Imminent return.
We are commanded to watch not for antichrist but for Jesus.
In a post trib position Jesus cant come until after antichrist has his bloodbath.



David


 2008/2/5 13:02Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi HE_Reigns...

Quote:
Once again the problem is with pulling a few scriptures from here and there.

We are resurrected "at His Coming" and those coming "with Him" are those Paul said, "the dead in Christ shall rise first - THEN we who are alive and 'survive' will be caught up together with them IN THE AIR".

Context and having every Scripture that pertains to "those days" must be before our eyes.

Do you not see how those who believe in a “taking away" before the hour of God’s wrath can say the same thing about you? Thankfully, they don't choose to exercise such supposed liberty because of a disagreement.
Quote:
Is Zac Poonen arrogant for writing what he has on Revelation or Ryle or the many others?

Should we place our faith in Zac Poonen...or Ryle? David Wilkerson still believes in a "rapture" that comes before the hour of God's wrath, as does Carter Conlon (according to an email that I received from Times Square Church Assistant Pastor Neil Rhodes). So what! They are ALL flawed human beings – just like you and me!
Quote:
Most importantly - why is there so very very much Scripture on "those days and His Day" in His Word?

And yet there is so very, very much disagreement on the interpretation of these passages and the meaning of the “Day” of the Lord! I have explored the different notions and ideas regarding the “Day of the Lord” as related to Bible prophecy. Is there a single “day of the Lord” or are there other days known as the “day of the Lord?” This is a great question – one for which I cannot provide a 100% definitive answer. Likewise, I don’t respect the views of the pre-trib crowd any more than those of the post-trib crowd. If we are true believers, then we are longing for the return of our Lord and to see His face! Can we be so bold as to dismiss the credibility of those who disagree with us or warn them of the “danger” of believing mostly the same but admitting the possibility of a “catching away?”

Regardless, there is still room for discussion without dismissing the alternative ideas as “lies.” The notions that are clear are:
1. Persecution and tribulation have always existed for believers.
2. However, the days are growing worse.
3. The wrath of God is coming.
4. The wrath of God will result in God pouring out judgment indiscriminately upon entire portions of the Earth resulting in the deaths of entire populations.
5. Jesus will come to Earth again.

The only question that I have is whether or not the Church will be appointed to suffer the Wrath of God. Will God gather the true Church before He pours out His wrath upon this world? There are many reasons that I feel point to this. Like you, Annie, I have studied the Scriptures diligently, in context and as a whole. I just don’t feel secure enough to make a claim in a manner that cannot be questioned or that calls all other beliefs a “lie.”

I don’t preach that the “rapture” will occur. I don’t preach that believers will be forced to endure the hour of God’s wrath. When I speak to others, I let them know of the different scenarios that are common amongst both sides. I still [i]hope[/i] to be taken from this world before the hour of God’s wrath, but I am prepared to die for Him – even if it happens at His own hands. I just want to see Jesus.

:-)


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Christopher

 2008/2/5 13:10Profile
Tears_of_joy
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Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:
psalm1 wrote:
You are wrong about the return of Jesus for his bride . [b]It is a surprise[/b] to the remnant and all others.



David, this is not what the Bible reveals to us. We don't know the exact [b]'day and hour knoweth no man'[/b] of His coming, but the [b]times and seasons[/b] are not [i]surprise[/i] to the [i]remnant[/i], it will surprise to the world and the christians in name only. Read carefully the words of the apostle Paul:

1Th 5:1 But of [b]the times and the seasons, brethren[/b], ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know [b]perfectly[/b] that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; [b]then sudden destruction cometh upon them[/b], as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 [b]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.[/b]
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: [b]we are not of the night[/b], nor of darkness.

Do you think this is surprise? Surprise will be if you not ready and waiting and living in darkness.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not [b]what hour[/b] your Lord doth come.

Note here, it is written [b]hour[/b], but not the times and seasons.

 2008/2/5 13:14Profile





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