Tribulation, in my opinion, is here now. It has been around since the time of the early Church. The early believers were persecuted and tortured for their faith (and even sawed in two, as described in Hebrews 11:32-38). The "god of this age" has always been at work in the terrible attempt to destroy the true Church and Gospel of Christ. [b]How will this be different in the last days?[/b]
Chris, it's quite surprising to ask this [i]fundamental[/i] question about the tribulation and persecution of the church in the last days, since the Lord Jesus clearly told us:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be [u]great tribulation[/u], [b]such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [/b]
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
| 2008/2/5 10:43||Profile|
Hi Chris, hope all is well with you and yours.
Brother, as hard core as you are for "facts", your post really broke my heart. I could barely find one line that lined up with HIS WORD.
It was all conjecture and no Scripture backing at all.
The Saints - by now - should even be "understanding" Daniel chpt.s 7-12 - nonetheless the entire N.T. chpt.s and verses regarding the resurrection.
This is a "doctrine" of the Church we're discussing here and not a CT, that may have opposing viewpoints. In fact we're warned at the end of Revelation, that if we take away or add to this topic of His Second Coming - we're in worse than a pickle.
Do you have any true idea HOW MUCH of the Bible is dedicated to this subject???
That's a Very Important question brother - Very Important.
The O.T. and New are jam-packed - literally - and Jesus said, "Behold, I have told you ALL things."
You ended with:
The key: Be ready! The Lord is returning at a time when we think not (and not even the Son knows of that time)!
Wrong. Only those who do not watch will be taken by surprise and the Son only didn't know the time when He was still in the flesh.
He has been restored to His former Glory-Co-Equality as God since the resurrection.
He only comes as a thief in the night for those who are not watching ALL that is written that have been given as signs of those days.
It is a lie that we cannot know. Jesus said so as well as Paul and Peter and John.
Once again, 'please' - look at the overwhelming amount of Scripture that addresses "those days" from the O.T. to the New.
It is dangerous to speculate and all the more so as that day approaches.
If I can collect all of those chpt.s and verses from the O.T. to the New that regard "those days" than you know - anybody can.
And the fact that they are so voluminous, proves that saying words like "I prefer" - "I think" - "I shy away" and so forth, is actually anti-Scripture.
In His Love, sincerely.
| 2008/2/5 10:54|
bro. thank you so much for your sacrifice to our country. I do definitely appreciate you.
Concerning the marriage supper.
It happens in heaven.
rev19; 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
note the setting is heaven and the bribe is now the WIFE .
also note they ride with Jesus on the white horses to do battle with antichrist.
Compare that to matt26;29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
and john 14; 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Note that in a post trib scenario none of this is possible.
Like I said before the confusion is in using the tribulation period as a backdrop or basis for interpreting the end times events.
I believe this is improper as the groom has his eye on the bride and not antichrist.
If you lay aside tribulation, and just look at the marriage of the bride and groom you will see post trib as an impossibility.
God bless you bro and protect you,
| 2008/2/5 11:02||Profile|
Dear Brother David, you are making a very large mistake by pulling seperate scripture verses from their context.
When one reads anything from Rev 19 they must read straight through - as the ONE dialoge that it was written as - unto the end of the Book.
Chpt.s 19-22 were written to be read as one continuous story of the End.
Then you will read also of The New Jerusalem - the "place" He is preparing.
Then get a cross-reference Bible - the older the better and cross-reference as you read.
LORD protect you also.
| 2008/2/5 11:15|
Thank you for your "warning" about my leanings. I hope that you wouldn't get "offended" if I questioned your spiritual judgment simply because of your belief in "post-trib."
I have considered the "facts" from the Word of God. Yet I cannot find a deciding factor that would make me believe that the Church is appointed to suffer God's WRATH. Yes, it will be a time of "tribulation" -- but it is tribulation coming FROM GOD'S WRATH. I am somewhat convinced that God does not want to pour his wrath upon His own people. But this is my own estimation about the Scriptures. I apologize that you are so offended by the distinction that I made as being "anti-Scriptural" (as opposed to presenting my belief as an inarguable fact).
Some of us are still not perfect, sister. Please forgive my earthly shell. Not all of us can be 100% completely perfect in [u]every[/u] single doctrinal issue.
Believe me, I am not 100% convinced of a pre-wrath "catching away" of the Church. But I am somewhat less convinced that God is going to kill His people together with unbelievers when He indiscriminately destroys a third of the Earth, etc... That being said, the possibility remains open in my mind that the Church [i]might[/i] be appointed to suffer the wrath of God. I only wish that you would be open to even the slightest possibility (or less prejudiced against those who believe) that the Church might be "taken" before God begins pouring out His wrath upon the Earth. We are not wanting to "believe a lie" as you suppose. Some of us are searching for the truth.
Contrary to your assumption, most pre-trib people that I know are "[u]watching[/u]" for the Lord's return. Why would you think that we are not? Are you so vastly superior in your "perfect knowledge" that you suppose that everyone who doesn't agree with you is less spiritual or less knowledgeable? Not even the Son of God knows when He is returning (Mark 13:32 -- which is ironic if there is indeed a 7 year period and our Lord understands mathematics)!!! How can you pretend to know? It is utterly ridiculous to claim that the Lord is not going to come for anyone who is not fulfilling your personal definition of "watch."
I am praying for pre-wrath. I am prepared to die for our Lord nonetheless -- regardless of whether this happens at the hands of the world, Satan or God. Either way, we win! To live is Christ and to die is...
| 2008/2/5 11:24||Profile|
preachparsely, I believe the reason for the wording "desire to go through the tribulation", is because of the scripture being clear about a pre trib rapture.
The wedding supper,the white horses, the 10 virgins and direct word of scripture,one would think,needs to be reconciled.
I don't see where any of those references clearly say "I am coming to gather my church before I come the 2nd time." By your comment about you believe those things need to be reconciled, you admit that the main reason you think there must be a pre trib rapture is due to your interpretation of several events. Most pre-trib teachers have a laid out plan and then since they suppose their chart is right, they demand for something like a pre-trib rapture. If there isn't a plain text that says "seven years before Christ's second coming he will come for the church" then there isn't a plain verse that teaches the pretrib rapture. Again, the reason anyone believes a pretrib rapture isn't due to a plain scripture, but because they interpret several events in a certain way which demands for a pretrib rapture. [EDIT: Whether their interpretation is right or wrong doesn't matter for the point I'm trying to make] Does that make sense?
Now lets assume Jesus comes back after the tribulation for his bride(the rapture)
It is clear that the saints never reach heaven under this theory.And so do not attend the wedding supper.
Thus a major hole in the posttrib doctrine.(one of many)
Only a twofold coming and a pretrib rapture reconcile the scripture i have brought forth.
How do you know that the marriage supper is literally a sit around the table type of thing? Do you interpret the white horses you mentioned to be literal horses coming? Or do you interpret it symbolic to represent something? I think it's interesting that those scriptures you referenced are all symbolic or parables, yet you demand that the marriage supper is literal. Why?
Also, the marriage supper even if took literal, isn't very long. It's at the end of the tribulation that is after the great whore is destroyed.
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for [b]he hath judged the great whore[/b], which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
| 2008/2/5 11:28||Profile|
Dear Chris, [b]I[/b] am not "offended".
I fear you have this fear of my taking this [i]personally[/i]. Not in the least and quite the Contrary. My concern is for your non-Scriptural conclusions on this major doctrine. For you and for yours, as I do truly care for you and your family - never stopped since I first met you.
As far as any of us being "perfect" - there are many different words for "perfect" - in this case it is to live up to the light that has been given or with Scripture - the light that has been 'searched out'.
There are more Scripture on His Second Coming than any other doctrine in our Statement of Faith.
Hmmm, gives us a clue how important this was/is to HIM.
Ignorance of these Scriptures is purely willfull - and surely not His Will.
If you read Revelation carefully - "the wrath" is mentioned three times as "the vials" which comes after "the Tribulation".
Again in this reply you are stating "you prefer to believe" - whether worded exactly that way or not.
You cannot back up these beliefs with Scripture in Context.
We were told to watch the signs and not just watch for Jesus to come but those things that are mentioned in Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 - just for a Very Few. Nonetheless The Revelation and all that Paul and Peter had to say - then onto the O.T. - most especially Daniel.
I am not insulting you but you have some attempts at personal insults toward me in your post.
I posted 1 Corth 13 last night and that's my only motive - otherwise I wouldn't post to you at all.
Love you Brother.
| 2008/2/5 11:51|
In Rev. 12, we read of Satan being enraged with certain people. There we read of him first trying to devour the Man-child (Jesus Christ) that the woman (Israel) had brought forth into the world. Satan could not succeed there, and the Man-child grew up, completed His ministry and ascended up to the throne of God (Rev. 12:4,5). Satan's fury is now directed against the younger brothers of this Man-child. These are described as those "who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17 b). These are the disciples of Jesus whose life is characterised by total obedience to the commandments of God and who boldly hold fast to the testimony of Jesus. They open their mouths, speaking about everything that Jesus Himself testified to - for this is "the testimony of Jesus". There are very few like these on earth today, for there are very few churches in the world now preaching total obedience to God's commandments.
Revelation 12:5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
This is referring to the rebirth of Israel, not the Church.
Revelation 12 is referring to a Kingdom first promised to Israel where Jesus will sit on the throne of David and rule the Nations with rod of Iron......Jesus Messiah died on a cross and rose again, to return to fulfill those promises to Israel.
When Jesus Returns, the Church will return with Him....
We know Paul told us...the Church..that we would meet HIM in the clouds, therefore the Rapture of the church Jesus will not set foot on earth.
When He returns to execute JUDGEMENT and WRATH upon those who have received the mark of the beast.
2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Yes, at the Earthly return of Jesus Christ, those who do come through the tribulation and Nations as well, will come and worship, for His judgements will then be made manifest.
The Church does not sing the song of Moses as they overcome the mark of the beast, for we are overcomers NOW in Christ.
13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So, those ****with*** Christ during this great battle are the *called*, *chosen* and *faithful*.....who would that be, The Church
Again: Jude speaks of this great time of God's wrath and Judgement stating:
Jude 14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, [u][b]Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints[/b][/u] Hummmmmm...doesn't say angels, but Saints....US...the called, chosen and faithful! The Church.....this is part of the Mystery Paul is telling us in Ephesians.......That we would know the hope of OUR Calling....
To do what:
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Love in Christ
| 2008/2/5 12:03|
I have no doubt that you mean well with your warnings. But can you reread your post to me? Can you see how it can appear condescending to those who lean toward a belief in a "rapture" or "taking away" of the Church before the hour of God's wrath? You make it appear that you are concerned for our eternal souls -- as if we could go to Hell for not believing in a post-wrath manner.
This was not meant to shoot barbs. I am not "offended" at all by your views -- even if I might disagree with them. However, you do appear to express yourself in a manner that leaves no room for human error. But we are confined to our Earthly shell until we can see His face. I used to believe in pre-trib. Then I went to post-trib. Then, after long serious study, I currently [i]lean[/i] toward pre-wrath (for several good reasons that are often almost scoffed by some post-tribbers).
I responded to this thread simply because I wanted to make a distinction between the word "tribulation" and the hour of "GREAT TRIBULATION" that is coming. The Church has always faced persecution and great tribulation. Someone today (February 5th, 2008) will probably give his/her life for the Gospel in a communist or Islamic nation. They might even see their family murdered for the faith. However, the "Great Tribulation" is different only in that Satan will know that his time is short, and more importantly, the period will be terrible because of God's wrath! God will indiscriminantly pour out destruction upon entire portions of the Earth -- annihilating entire populations at the time. I currently don't feel that God has appointed us believers to suffer that wrath.
Please don't take this wrong. This is not calling your belief a "lie" (like you have done to us). This is not attacking your integrity. This is not attacking your ability to "discern" the Word of God. This is simply a topic that has been debated for a long time. I don't feel that it is expedient to go about proclaiming something as 100% undeniable truth that isn't quite 100% undeniable.
| 2008/2/5 12:08||Profile|
If you read Revelation carefully - "the wrath" is mentioned three times as "the vials" which comes after "the Tribulation".
Can you show me where it shows the wrath being after the tribulation? Are you meaning the wrath doesn't come until His coming? I'm not saying this to challenge, but to hear it expounded.
| 2008/2/5 12:09||Profile|