David, The true good news is that He's coming again. However the question is one of timing. I really hope that you can be willing to back off of your statement that the post trib rapture is an "Impossiblity". That is a very strong statement.It basically says you know all there is to know past, present and future concerning the second comming of Christ. I used to beleive in post trib right when I first got saved twenty years ago. Then I got into the Hal Lindsey books and started seeing scripture through those pre trib glasses. However over the following years as I continued to read the word with the desire to go with what it says on all topics I started seeing post trib again. After much study I have since settled on it. However I give grace and mercy to my brethren who hold to a pre or mid or pre wrath position. Talk later, God bless John
| 2008/2/4 6:33|
| Re: The Church and The Tribulation -- Zac Poonen|
No matter what our beliefs are regarding the Great Tribulation, we do know it will happen. We will also have tribulations leading up to that time. The Bible promises us that tribulation is part of the Christian's life. But the tribulations aren't what's important.
What is important is that God has provided everything we need to endure to the end, which is victory! Job was an amazing man who endured so much and kept the praises of God on his lips during times that would have defeated most men, especially today. He didn't endure to the end, rather he was up and down. But Job didn't have grace, like we do today. We have the promise of the Holy Spirit!
This is what's important! The new covenant is a blessing and God has provided exactly what we need no matter what tribulations we go through, great or small! This is what I wanted to encourage my brothers and sisters with. To endure for His glory!
As God used Job as a witness to Satan, let Him also commend us! If we take the route of debate from this, instead of the promise of victory, giving glory to God, then we divide ourselves and are no witness at all. We just show that our desire to be right means more. No man is perfect, but we know the One who is and He makes Himself available to us!
| 2008/2/4 7:44||Profile|
North Central Indiana
2ti 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
Note the statement "will suffer" Not might or perhaps.
However the words of Jesus are clear: "In the world YOU HAVE TRIBULATION. But take courage; I have overcome the world" (Jn.16:33). He never promised that we would escape tribulation - whether small tribulations or the great one. But He did say that we could overcome even as He overcame. He is far more interested in making us overcomers than in saving us out of tribulation, because He is far more interested in our character than in our comfort.
It can't be put much more plainly than that. the confusion with most people is that they can not differentiate between tribulation and God's wrath.
Tribulation and suffering is to be expected and even met joyfully by by the saints. It comes from the worlds hatred of Christ. The saints are not subject to Gods wrath.
1th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
These are two different situations entirely.
As for a secret "rapture" Jesus warns us about this right here.
Mt 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Mt 24:25 "See, I have told you beforehand.
Mt 24:26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
Mt 24:27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The whole world will know when HE comes.
| 2008/2/4 8:40||Profile|
hisremnant, If you are in India then you must have heard that Christians are heavily persecuted by Hindus.
I dont understand using fairness as a basis for studying Gods word. That somehow it isn't fair to say the 5 wise virgins dont go through the tribulation.
If we use this method of interpretation then God owes Uzzah (in theory) an apology.
I have never seen the word" secret " used in connection with the rapture.And yet another catch phrase used by anti pre trib debators.
The reason I say the rapture is impossible at the end of the tribulation is because of the many objections to such a notion.
Now if you take the position of the second coming as a single event then I can see why you espouse this doctrine.
The second coming is twofold.
He comes for his bride before the tribulation.
This is the picture the 10virgins points to. The five foolish stay behind.
The wise go on to heaven with the groom.
By rev 19 or 20 they are no longer the bride they are the wife. It is them they return with the Lord on the white horses. The wedding supper having been completed in heaven.
Now he comes not for the church as a groom but as a conquering king.
The ones left behind are martyred by Antichrist, however some defect and take the mark.
The martyrs are there on the white horses with the raptured saints.
The martyrs also get to heaven and also attend the wedding supper.
The reason it would be impossible for a post trib rapture is you cannot make every event fit into a single coming at the end of the tribulation period.
I believe the scriptures pointing to the pretrib rapture need to be reconciled.
It is not that i am locked into a false interpretation. My position has been taken after years of study and putting myself in the shoes of the post trib position.
Post trib has way too many loose ends.
Just lay aside the word tribulation and look at the bridegroom.
This is the angle that separates us.
The tribulation is Gods purpose.[it has purpose]
The wedding of the bride and groom is second only to Hebrews 9. [our high priest presenting his blood to the father}
The culmination of the bride in heaven and the wedding and wedding supper.
In matt Jesus said "I will not drink with you again until that day when I drink it new with you in my fathers kingdom.
Just the marriage supper alone is reason the post trib rapture doesnt fit at all.
So it would appear that the post trib position leaves out key elements?
| 2008/2/4 11:58||Profile|
John, What part of Iraq are you in? Are you in the military?
Anyway may God bless you and protect you.
It must be awesome being there.
| 2008/2/4 12:03||Profile|
You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns. [Todd Strandberg)
I think it's interesting that he seems to infer that the reason some don't believe in a pre-trib rapture is only because they have "the desire to go through the tribulation." Wouldn't it be more natural to want to be delivered from pain or persecution rather than go through it? I think most would agree with that statement. How do we know that those who believe in a pre-trib rapture aren't just going off a natural feeling rather than scriptural revelation? It's more illogical to believe a doctrine out of feeling or fear than it is to believe it on the basis of revelation.
I realize that can come off a little offensive because it imputes ill motives to someone, but it's the same rhetoric that the author of the quote just used. I mainly just said the above to show that many who have actually studied these doctrines and come to opposite conclusions it isn't because of bad motive or living off of feelings. It's because that is honestly what they see in the scriptures.
PS. The pre-tribbers are wrong. :-P
| 2008/2/4 13:35||Profile|
preachparsely, I believe the reason for the wording "desire to go through the tribulation", is because of the scripture being clear about a pre trib rapture.
The wedding supper,the white horses, the 10 virgins and direct word of scripture,one would think,needs to be reconciled.
Jesus said"I will not drink with you again until the day i drink it new with you in my fathers kingdom"
He was referring to the marriage supper.
Now lets assume Jesus comes back after the tribulation for his bride(the rapture)
It is clear that the saints never reach heaven under this theory.And so do not attend the wedding supper.
Thus a major hole in the posttrib doctrine.(one of many)
Only a twofold coming and a pretrib rapture reconcile the scripture i have brought forth.
| 2008/2/4 18:20||Profile|
Psalm1, I can't say exactly where I am for opsec reasons. I am in the Army and I am in southern Iraq. This is my second tour.
Learning Arabic and learning the way different Iraqi's live and practice Islam is very important. I have been able to share with a "few" a little bit of the true claims of the "prophet" Jesus.
I would encourage all of us to pray for the christians that are in Iraq. Pray that they would be revived and become a powerfull native missionary voice for the Lord!! Talk later,God bless, John
| 2008/2/5 5:11|
Psalm1, Are you sure that the wedding supper takes place in heaven? Could it take place at Jerusalem after the trib and at the beginning of the thousand year reign on earth? God bless, John
| 2008/2/5 5:14|
I really don't like the terms "pre-trib," "mid-trib" or "post-trib." Why? These are not entirely descriptive of the terrible time in which the world will live.
Tribulation, in my opinion, is here now. It has been around since the time of the early Church. The early believers were persecuted and tortured for their faith (and even sawed in two, as described in Hebrews 11:32-38). The "god of this age" has always been at work in the terrible attempt to destroy the true Church and Gospel of Christ. How will this be different in the last days?
Instead of using the word "[i]tribulation[/i]" (in regard to this final hour before the Second Coming), I prefer to use the word "[i]WRATH[/i]." The [i]wrath of God[/i] is what will distinguish this time from mere Satanic tribulation. God will pour our His wrath (which is being "stored up") through judgment upon the Earth in an unbiased fashion. At one point, an entire third of the Earth will be destroyed. This includes EVERY man, woman and child. This wrath makes no distinction between nation, race, tribe or even faith. All of these "blanket" judgments (bowls, trumpets, seals, etc...) of God's [i]wrath[/i] are far worse than the simple [i]tribulation[/i] that Satan has used to attack believers throughout eternity. It is literally the just persecution of this world at the will of God.
Currently, I lean toward a pre-[i]wrath[/i] "catching away" of the Church. Why? I do not believe that we (the Church) are appointed to suffer such wrath from God. It has never (as far as I can tell) been the nature of God to pour out his indiscriminate judgment upon His own innocent children. Tribulation, on the other hand, has been endured for centuries. Somewhere today, a believer will probably give his or her last full measure of devotion in sacrificing themselves to the Lord through the hand of evil persecution or tribulation. The wrath of God, however, is [u]not[/u] evil. I see the Church not as vessels of His wrath, but vessels of His mercy (Romans 9:22-24).
If the Church is appointed to suffer this period of God's wrath and we are killed at the judgment of God, so be it. I am willing to suffer at the hand of God. However, if we are appointed to be preserved from God's wrath (like Noah in the flood or the Hebrews in the Passover), then so be it. Either way, it is a win-win situation for believers. Like Keith Green said, "[i]Pray for pre-trib but be prepared for post-trib[/i]."
But I do shy away from the term "tribulation." In this world, we will have tribulation (and persecution). That is beyond question. However, the wrath of God is an entirely different matter altogether. I shy away from using such a general term to describe a specific time of terror. I also shy away from individuals who point the finger of "deception" at those who believe differently in terms of the End (or who are simply not convinced in one way or the other). There is a reasonable argument on both sides of this issue -- enough to merit caution when discussing it with others. I lean "[i]pre-wrath[/i]" (a sudden "catching" or "taking away" of the believers, the wrath of God (mingled with further persecution and tribulation from the "god of this age," followed by the Second Coming). However, I completely understand the feeling by some of a "[i]post-wrath[/i]" coming of the Lord. I don't feel the liberty to render a final proclamation or verdict in such matters.
The key: Be ready! The Lord is returning at a time when we think not (and not even the Son knows of that time)!
| 2008/2/5 10:23||Profile|