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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was Job born again?

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psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

dorcas, I believe all those of the old testament were men and had sin.
They were men of faith and that was what separated them from "ordinary" men,but nonetheless still in need of a savior??
If Abraham was in paradise[not heaven] before the crucifiction,wwhat of the rest of the patriarchs?
It would seem obvious to me that Jesus preached the gospel to the patriarchs???
I just cannot see any man entering heaven except through the blood of Jesus.In fact if there be another way , doesnt that somehow invalidate Jesus' death?
They were justified by faith?
Where does that put us?
Are we not also required to "believe"
Our salvation is through faith;therefore we also are justified by faith.
Heb 11 last verse "......that they without us should not be made perfect"
......Interesting topic!!!!


David

 2008/1/28 17:34Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

dorcas, I just thought of something else.
Cains offering was "bloodless"

The high priest upon entering to holy of holies,took the blood and...........
Now consider the blood. All the intricate REQUIREMENTS behind it and the priest.
And then all that pointing forward to Jesus.
I just cant believe in a "bloodless" entry to heaven for the patriarchs.


David

 2008/1/28 17:44Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It was imputed to him

Was it imputed to anyone AFTER law? Thats kind of what I was fishing for.

 2008/1/28 17:59
caldwell1
Member



Joined: 2006/11/24
Posts: 61
Rockland MA

 Re:

Ahh Good Question!

Imputed:Charged to the account of;attributed;ascribing
1828 Webster's Dictionary
I dunno,after the law was given? What happen to Elijah,wasnt he translated, caught up to heaven I dont know if that doesnt just raise more questions,so if this righteousness is imputed(ascribed) to Job (God himself caleed him blameless'perfect'righteous) wouldnt that mean it's possible that he recieved imputed righteous from God by faith in the messiah to come and that regenration would come at the cross.


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brian

 2008/1/28 19:18Profile









 Re: Was Job born again?


Hi David,

I don't think we can forget that the lamb had been slain before the foundation of the world in reality. It is more than figurative, that the Son was thus committed to coming to earth in the fulness of time, dying in the fulness of time and He fully accomplished all He had been sent to do. I believe the NT conveys to us that in a great house, there are both servants and sons, and different conditions pertain for them.

I suspect that all this vying to prove that OT saints were born again, serves more to show our arrogance over becoming sons, which it is nothing but sheer mercy that brought us here. As the Son, Jesus had to give Himself completely to His Father's will, by performing extreme service. Is this what we are vying for... to lay down our lives more completely, that we are called up to a higher table in that great feast? Or, do we merely hope to be in the room serving... but not eating until the Master has finished [i]His[/i] meal.

There must be much food for thought (no pun intended) through the parables about servanthood and sonship, which I'm just cottoning are to instruct us about great [u]eternal[/u] truths.

caldwell said

Quote:
wouldnt that mean it's possible that he recieved imputed righteous from God by faith in the messiah to come and that regenration would come at the cross.

I could be very wrong, but my impression about new birth, is that it enables us to live the life of God while here on earth [i]before[/i] we die, to enable us to bring more sons to glory and a knowledge of our Father. Are you suggesting the saints in God's presence before the cross, might have been born again [i]there[/i] - when their faith had already [u]saved[/u] them according to His word?

.

 2008/1/28 19:52
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Is it simple? NOW!!! He that has the Son, has life, he that has not the Son of God has not life.

We don't know whether Abraham had the Son, or Moses or any of the old testament patriarchs had the Son, it just is not clear. As far as God is concerned it us up to Him to make this clear, and only be clear to Himself, we have an admonition NOW and if He saved any in the Old Testament it is His concern, not ours. We know NOW that whom we have to deal with is Jesus Christ and believe that He is the Son of God and we will have the Son and eternal life in that Son. We know that we must be born again from above and that is our whole being, a New Creation Race of People in Christ Jesus. Let us deal with what we have now, not speculate on what was and base our salvation on the imputed righteousness of Abraham. Let us base our Righteousness on the Christ that has been born again in us, for God has made Him our righteousness, wisdom, sanctification and redemption.

Because: 2Cr 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ's, even so [are] we Christ's.

It is if he is of Christ, even so are we. This is the only thing we can say about the Old Testament Patriarchs.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Paul says 8 times follow me as I follow Christ, no one in the old testament has said this our could say this, they were only concerned how to please God and wait upon His Mercy.

Much more: let us follow Christ as Paul did.
Led by the Holy Spirit that Christ gave us.

We are concerned with this Christ that will be birthed in us and our being Crucified with Him, and dying to sin on His behalf, and being resurrected unto new life in Him. Let us follow Paul and do as he did and let this Christ that is now birthed in us become what Jesus told him to do.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Let this mystery that Paul speaks of so overwhelm us and fullfill the Word of God that we might present every man Perfect in Him.

Who cares about the Old Testament? It cannot save us and I don't believe it could save them. It is up to God's Mercy, let us leave it in His Hands and deal with the NOW.

Now are we in Christ. Now are we crucified with Him. Now are we dead to sin in Him. Now are we born again. Now are we seated with Christ in a heavenly sphere of living, "seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. This is our Now, The Then will not give us any life. Our life is hid with God in Christ, NOW.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is our NOW:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His Seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because He is born of God.

Jesus Christ Born of God and us Born Again of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth Him also that is begotten of Him.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

NOW let us be IN CHRIST: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/1/28 21:16Profile
deltadom
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Job 1:8 - Show Context
Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"

To me this is a man who is worth some honour get the fact that no human says that their is none on the earth like job. To me from this that Job would have to have some personal relationship with God

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb; 9 When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; 10 When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors; 11 When I said, 'This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!'

12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began, And caused the dawn to know its place, 13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it? 14 It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment. 15 From the wicked their light is withheld, And the upraised arm is broken. 16 "Have you entered the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in search of the depths? 17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death? 18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this. 19 "Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place, 20 That you may take it to its territory, That you may know the paths to its home? 21 Do you know it, because you were born then, Or because the number of your days is great? 22 "Have you entered the treasury of snow, Or have you seen the treasury of hail, 23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble, For the day of battle and war? 24 By what way is light diffused, Or the east wind scattered over the earth?

25 "Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water, Or a path for the thunderbolt, 26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one, A wilderness in which there is no man; 27 To satisfy the desolate waste, And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass? 28 Has the rain a father? Or who has begotten the drops of dew? 29 From whose womb comes the ice? And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth? 30 The waters harden like stone, And the surface of the deep is frozen. 31 "Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion? 32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth F56 in its season? Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs? 33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth? 34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, That an abundance of water may cover you? 35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go, And say to you, 'Here we are!'? 36 Who has put wisdom in the mind? F57 Or who has given understanding to the heart? 37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven, 38 When the dust hardens in clumps, And the clods cling together? 39 "Can you hunt the prey for the lion, Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions, 40 When they crouch in their dens, Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait? 41 Who provides food for the raven, When its young ones cry to God, And wander about for lack of food?

Would God show up to someone like Job if he did not know them personally

A quote from James

James 5:11
Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord--that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

It is abit hard to argue with someone who has been face to face with the most hight god such as Moses did. Job did not see his face but to have an experience like that changes you forever.
Seeing God face to face namely jesus as he is the

Col 2:9 - Show Context
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

Col 1:15 - Show Context
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Mt 5:8 - Show Context
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

Like Job I would love it if God said the same thing that he said about job about me.

To me the question is not whether he is born again or not is whether you have a personal relationship with God the same way job did that Satan would actually want to put you through the same thing Job did.

Ac 19:15 - Show Context
And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"

Does the devil and God know who you are? I have always wanted to be on the devils most wanted list? Even thou my life is a mess and I am about as far away as the furthest galaxy which is something like cornex.

Job 1
4 And his sons would go and feast in their houses, each on his appointed day, and would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed F1 God in their hearts." Thus Job did regularly.

Consider that the offerings were yet a shadow of the future things yet to come

Heb 10:1 - Show Context
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

In his offerings this would be a shadow of the cross and the future things yet to come. To me it is not the question as to ask whether job was saved as he would not have known that term as god had not yet revealed it

A quote from Jesus

Joh 8:56 - Show Context
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

Is it possible that job saw aswell as Abraham, your father Abraham rejoiced to see my Day
(that is in the past tense) and he saw (present tense) and was glad (present tense)

This shows that the heavenly realm can see what is going on down here.

Mark 12
25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? F57 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

This shows us another thing that god is a god of the living and not the dead.

We have to assume that Job would have known about salvation in a shadow kind of sense but to me desiring that relationship with God like Moses had and lIke samuel had in which one word did not fall to the ground and Moses who saw god face to face.

TO me this is not a debate, do you have a relationship with god like Job who in the midst of terrible suffering rejoiced in his saviour and who understood the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away blessed be his glorius name.

Is this worth the debate


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Dominic Shiells

 2008/1/28 22:00Profile
rowdy2
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Was Job born again?

The Prophets knew and are ministers to us on this side of the cross. You read the record [script] Moses with down to Egypt with out script and started preaching by the power of The Holy Spirit and kept on preaching and His words inspired by the Holy Spirit are the first five books of the script..

Jesus sent out disciples with out script.

Keep in mind
Don’t resist
All the true prophets of Israel of the Bible are ministers to us by the Power of The Holy Spirit

the script is their record to us inspired by The Holy Spirit.

Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner, this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
KJV


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Eddie

 2008/1/29 0:03Profile
rowdy2
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re:

Acts 3

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


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Eddie

 2008/1/29 0:18Profile
rowdy2
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re:

Galatians 1
10. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14. And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


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Eddie

 2008/1/29 0:22Profile





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