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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : How are people dealing with the Real ID act as Christians?

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dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 Re:

Mike,

Thank you and I apologize as reading over my first post in the General section I find that I did not use discretion in some of the links and would have been more in the Spirit of God to include links to purely factual resources.

If I have carried myself well it is only in Christ, by nature I am quite contentious. Thanks to you, Greg, the other moderators and all who participate on this site for providing a resource in which we can, as members of Christ's body, seek true revival. The sermons on this site have been a blessing, as has this forum and all the points of view discussed.


_________________
David

 2008/1/24 10:23Profile
dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 Re:

Microchips Everywhere: a Future Vision
January 26, 2008 12:16 PM EST
Here's a vision of the not-so-distant future:

-Microchips with antennas will be embedded in virtually everything you buy, wear, drive and read, allowing retailers and law enforcement to track consumer items - and, by extension, consumers - wherever they go, from a distance.

-A seamless, global network of electronic "sniffers" will scan radio tags in myriad public settings, identifying people and their tastes instantly so that customized ads, "live spam," may be beamed at them.

-In "Smart Homes," sensors built into walls, floors and appliances will inventory possessions, record eating habits, monitor medicine cabinets - all the while, silently reporting data to marketers eager for a peek into the occupants' private lives.

Science fiction?

In truth, much of the radio frequency identification technology that enables objects and people to be tagged and tracked wirelessly already exists - and new and potentially intrusive uses of it are being patented, perfected and deployed.

Some of the world's largest corporations are vested in the success of RFID technology, which couples highly miniaturized computers with radio antennas to broadcast information about sales and buyers to company databases.

Already, microchips are turning up in some computer printers, car keys and tires, on shampoo bottles and department store clothing tags. They're also in library books and "contactless" payment cards (such as American Express' "Blue" and ExxonMobil's "Speedpass.")

Companies say the RFID tags improve supply-chain efficiency, cut theft, and guarantee that brand-name products are authentic, not counterfeit. At a store, RFID doorways could scan your purchases automatically as you leave, eliminating tedious checkouts.

At home, convenience is a selling point: RFID-enabled refrigerators could warn about expired milk, generate weekly shopping lists, even send signals to your interactive TV, so that you see "personalized" commercials for foods you have a history of buying. Sniffers in your microwave might read a chip-equipped TV dinner and cook it without instruction.

"We've seen so many different uses of the technology," says Dan Mullen, president of AIM Global, a national association of data collection businesses, including RFID, "and we're probably still just scratching the surface in terms of places RFID can be used."

The problem, critics say, is that microchipped products might very well do a whole lot more.

With tags in so many objects, relaying information to databases that can be linked to credit and bank cards, almost no aspect of life may soon be safe from the prying eyes of corporations and governments, says Mark Rasch, former head of the computer-crime unit of the U.S. Justice Department.

By placing sniffers in strategic areas, companies can invisibly "rifle through people's pockets, purses, suitcases, briefcases, luggage - and possibly their kitchens and bedrooms - anytime of the day or night," says Rasch, now managing director of technology at FTI Consulting Inc., a Baltimore-based company.

In an RFID world, "You've got the possibility of unauthorized people learning stuff about who you are, what you've bought, how and where you've bought it ... It's like saying, 'Well, who wants to look through my medicine cabinet?'"

He imagines a time when anyone from police to identity thieves to stalkers might scan locked car trunks, garages or home offices from a distance. "Think of it as a high-tech form of Dumpster diving," says Rasch, who's also concerned about data gathered by "spy" appliances in the home.

"It's going to be used in unintended ways by third parties - not just the government, but private investigators, marketers, lawyers building a case against you ..."

---

Presently, the radio tag most commercialized in America is the so-called "passive" emitter, meaning it has no internal power supply. Only when a reader powers these tags with a squirt of electrons do they broadcast their signal, indiscriminately, within a range of a few inches to 20 feet.

Not as common, but increasing in use, are "active" tags, which have internal batteries and can transmit signals, continuously, as far as low-orbiting satellites. Active tags pay tolls as motorists to zip through tollgates; they also track wildlife, such as sea lions.

Retailers and manufacturers want to use passive tags to replace the bar code, for tracking inventory. These radio tags transmit Electronic Product Codes, number strings that allow trillons of objects to be uniquely identified. Some transmit specifics about the item, such as price, though not the name of the buyer.

However, "once a tagged item is associated with a particular individual, personally identifiable information can be obtained and then aggregated to develop a profile," the U.S. Government Accountability Office concluded in a 2005 report on RFID.

Federal agencies and law enforcement already buy information about individuals from commercial data brokers, companies that compile computer dossiers on millions of individuals from public records, credit applications and many other sources, then offer summaries for sale. These brokers, unlike credit bureaus, aren't subject to provisions of the Fair Credit Reporting Act of 1970, which gives consumers the right to correct errors and block access to their personal records.

That, and the ever-increasing volume of data collected on consumers, is worrisome, says Mike Hrabik, chief technology officer at Solutionary, a computer-security firm in Bethesda, Md. "Are companies using that information incorrectly, and are they giving it out inappropriately? I'm sure that's happening. Should we be concerned? Yes."

Even some industry proponents recognize risks. Elliott Maxwell, a research fellow at Pennsylvania State University who serves as a policy adviser to EPCglobal, the industry's standard-setting group, says data broadcast by microchips can easily be intercepted, and misused, by high-tech thieves.

As RFID goes mainstream and the range of readers increases, it will be "difficult to know who is gathering what data, who has access to it, what is being done with it, and who should be held responsible for it," Maxwell wrote in RFID Journal, an industry publication.

The recent growth of the RFID industry has been staggering: From 1955 to 2005, cumulative sales of radio tags totaled 2.4 billion; last year alone, 2.24 billion tags were sold worldwide, and analysts project that by 2017 cumulative sales will top 1 trillion - generating more than $25 billion in annual revenues for the industry.

Heady forecasts like these energize chip proponents, who insist that RFID will result in enormous savings for businesses. Each year, retailers lose $57 billion from administrative failures, supplier fraud and employee theft, according to a recent survey of 820 retailers by Checkpoint Systems, an RFID manufacturer that specializes in store security devices.

Privacy concerns, some RFID supporters say, are overblown. One, Mark Roberti, editor of RFID Journal, says the notion that businesses would conspire to create high-resolution portraits of people is "simply silly."

Corporations know Americans are sensitive about their privacy, he says, and are careful not to alienate consumers by violating it. Besides, "All companies keep their customer data close to the vest ... There's absolutely no value in sharing it. Zero."

Industry officials, too, insist that addressing privacy concerns is paramount. As American Express spokeswoman Judy Tenzer says, "Security and privacy are a top priority for American Express in everything we do."

But industry documents suggest a different line of thinking, privacy experts say.

A 2005 patent application by American Express itself describes how RFID-embedded objects carried by shoppers could emit "identification signals" when queried by electronic "consumer trackers." The system could identify people, record their movements, and send them video ads that might offer "incentives" or "even the emission of a scent."

RFID readers could be placed in public venues, including "a common area of a school, shopping center, bus station or other place of public accommodation," according to the application, which is still pending - and which is not alone.

In 2006, IBM received patent approval for an invention it called, "Identification and tracking of persons using RFID-tagged items." One stated purpose: To collect information about people that could be "used to monitor the movement of the person through the store or other areas."

Once somebody enters a store, a sniffer "scans all identifiable RFID tags carried on the person," and correlates the tag information with sales records to determine the individual's "exact identity." A device known as a "person tracking unit" then assigns a tracking number to the shopper "to monitor the movement of the person through the store or other areas."

But as the patent makes clear, IBM's invention could work in other public places, "such as shopping malls, airports, train stations, bus stations, elevators, trains, airplanes, restrooms, sports arenas, libraries, theaters, museums, etc." (RFID could even help "follow a particular crime suspect through public areas.")

Another patent, obtained in 2003 by NCR Corp., details how camouflaged sensors and cameras would record customers' wanderings through a store, film their facial expressions at displays, and time - to the second - how long shoppers hold and study items.

Why? Such monitoring "allows one to draw valuable inferences about the behavior of large numbers of shoppers," the patent states.

Then there's a 2001 patent application by Procter & Gamble, "Systems and methods for tracking consumers in a store environment." This one lays out an idea to use heat sensors to track and record "where a consumer is looking, i.e., which way she is facing, whether she is bending over or crouching down to look at a lower shelf."

The system could space sensors 8 feet apart, in ceilings, floors, shelving and displays, so they could capture signals transmitted every 1.5 seconds by microchipped shopping carts.

The documents "raise the hair on the back of your neck," says Liz McIntyre, co-author of "Spychips," a book that is critical of the industry. "The industry has long promised it would never use this technology to track people. But these patent records clearly suggest otherwise."

Corporations take issue with that, saying that patent filings shouldn't be used to predict a company's actions.

"We file thousands of patents every year, which are designed to protect concepts or ideas," Paul Fox, a spokesman for Procter & Gamble, says. "The reality is that many of those ideas and concepts never see the light of day."

And what of his company's 2001 patent application? "I'm not aware of any plans to use that," Fox says.

Sandy Hughes, P&G's global privacy executive, adds that Procter & Gamble has no intention of using any technologies - RFID or otherwise - to track individuals. The idea of the 2001 filing, she says, is to monitor how groups of people react to store displays, "not individual consumers."

NCR and American Express echoed those statements. IBM declined to comment for this story.

"Not every element in a patent filing is necessarily something we would pursue....," says Tenzer, the American Express spokeswoman. "Under no circumstances would we use this technology without a customer's permission."

McIntyre has her doubts.

In the marketing world of today, she says, "data on individual consumers is gold, and the only thing preventing these companies from abusing technologies like RFID to get at that gold is public scrutiny."

---

RFID dates to World War II, when Britain put transponders in Allied aircraft to help radar crews distinguish them from German fighters. In the 1970s, the U.S. government tagged trucks entering and leaving secure facilities such as the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and a decade later, they were used to track livestock and railroad cars.

In 2003, the U.S. Department of Defense and Wal-Mart gave RFID a mammoth push, mandating that suppliers radio tag all crates and cartons. To that point, the cost of tags had simply been too high to make tagging pallets - let alone individual items - viable. In 1999, passive tags cost nearly $2 apiece.

Since then, rising demand and production of microchips - along with technological advances - have driven tag prices down to a range of 7 to 15 cents. At that price, the technology is "well-suited at a case and pallet level," says Mullen, of the industry group AIM Global.

John Simley, a spokesman for Wal-Mart, says tracking products in real-time helps ensure product freshness and lowers the chances that items will be out of stock. By reducing loss and waste in the supply chain, RFID "allows us to keep our prices that much lower."

Katherine Albrecht, founder of CASPIAN, an anti-RFID group, says, "Nobody cares about radio tags on crates and pallets. But if we don't keep RFID off of individual consumer items, our stores will one day turn into retail 'zoos' where the customer is always on exhibit."

So, how long will it be before you find an RFID tag in your underwear? The industry isn't saying, but some analysts speculate that within a decade tag costs may dip below a penny, the threshold at which nearly everything could be chipped.

To businesses slammed by counterfeiters - pharmaceuticals, for one - that's not a bad thing. Sales of fake drugs cost drug makers an estimated $46 billion a year. In 2004, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration recommended that RFID be incorporated throughout the supply chain as a way of making sure consumers get authentic drugs.

In the United States, Pfizer has already begun chipping all 30- and 100-count bottles of Viagra, one of the most counterfeited drugs.

Chips could be embedded in other controlled or potentially dangerous items such as firearms and explosives, to make them easier to track. This was mentioned in IBM's patent documents.

Still, the idea that tiny radio chips might be in their socks and shoes doesn't sit well with Americans. At least, that's what Fleishman-Hillard Inc., a public-relations firm in St. Louis, found in 2001 when it surveyed 317 consumers for the industry.

Seventy-eight percent of those queried reacted negatively to RFID when privacy was raised. "More than half claimed to be extremely or very concerned," the report said, noting that the term "Big Brother" was "used in 15 separate cases to describe the technology."

It also found that people bridled at the idea of having "Smart Tags" in their homes. One surveyed person remarked: "Where money is to be made the privacy of the individual will be compromised."

In 2002, Fleishman-Hillard produced another report for the industry that counseled RFID makers to "convey (the) inevitability of technology," and to develop a plan to "neutralize the opposition," by adopting friendlier names for radio tags such as "Bar Code II" and "Green Tag."

And in a 2003 report, Helen Duce, the industry's trade group director in Europe, wrote that "the lack of clear benefits to consumers could present a problem in the 'real world,'" particularly if privacy issues were stirred by "negative press coverage."

(Though the reports were marked "Confidential," they were later found archived on an industry trade group's Web site.)

The Duce report's recommendations: Tell consumers that RFID is regulated, that RFID is just a new and improved bar code, and that retailers will announce when an item is radio tagged, and deactivate the tags at check-out upon a customer's request.

Actually, in the United States, RFID is not federally regulated. And while bar codes identify product categories, radio tags carry unique serial numbers that - when purchased with a credit card, frequent shopper card or contactless card - can be linked to specific shoppers.

And, unlike bar codes, RFID tags can be read through almost anything except metal and water, without the holder's knowledge.

EPCglobal, the industry's standard-setting body, has issued public policy guidelines that call for retailers to put a thumbnail-sized logo - "EPC," for Electronic Product Code - on all radio tagged packaging. The group also suggests that merchants notify shoppers that RFID tags can be removed, discarded or disabled.

Critics say the guidelines are voluntary, vague and don't penalize violators. They want federal and state oversight - something the industry has vigorously opposed - particularly after two RFID manufacturers, Checkpoint Systems and Sensormatic, announced last year that they are marketing tags designed to be embedded in such items as shoes.

Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, says, "I don't think there's any basis ... for consumers to have to think that their clothing is tracking them."

---

On the Web:

http://www.epcglobalinc.org

http://www.spychips.com

http://epic.org/

http://www.idtechex.com/


_________________
David

 2008/1/26 14:41Profile
dbm
Member



Joined: 2007/9/17
Posts: 31
Lisle, Illinois

 Re:

http://www.fcsministries.org/up/index.html

First Hunger-free Zone in America
January 2008

The idea is brilliant — to make Kansas City the first hunger-free zone in the country. It is the brain-child of a very sharp entrepreneurial-type Christian businessman who has a concern for the poor and a mind that thrives on solving big problems. We sat in the pastor’s office of a prominent Baptist church, a church that had taken the lead in convening the city’s decision-makers around the issues of poverty. Considerable excitement had already been generated around this idea of eliminating hunger from the entire metro area. But this was far more than a mere feed-the-hungry program — it was a community-building initiative to mobilize people of faith and good will to join together in a visible expression of compassion in their own neighborhoods. For the church world, it would serve to unite the Body of Christ across denominational barriers as they reach out to serve others in need. The man with the plan leaned forward as he explained how the strategy would work.

The technology and data are already in place, he said, that identifies every church member in the greater Kansas City area — names, ages, where they live, phone numbers, email addresses, employment status, what church they are members of. This information can be assembled and printed on plat maps of every neighborhood in the city, block by block, house by house. The maps will be distributed to all the churches so every Christian can know where every other Christian in their community is located. With their churches’ blessing and encouragement, church members would contact other church members who live on their block, get acquainted, organize food collections from their neighbors and take the food to various collection points for distribution to the needy. As churches get behind the effort — organize their parishioners, post the number of membership groups being formed, report the quantity of food being gathered — momentum will build and a contagion of compassion will spread across the city. Based on reliable estimates of the number of residents at or below the poverty line, the quantity of food that could be collected each month is, in conservative estimates, far in excess of the need.

“How do you keep your data current?” I inquired. With so much mobility in our society, so many people moving, changing jobs, changing churches, it would seem that much of the data would be outdated within a year or two. “You don’t want to know,” the entrepreneur smiled. There are corporations with millions of highly secured, climate controlled square footage filled with mainframe computers that run around the clock gathering, storing, organizing and reporting everything about us, from our favorite cereal to kind of car we drive. “The data is available,” he assured me, “for a price.”

“How do you get churches to cooperate?” I asked. I know something about denominational competition, even competition between churches of the same stripe. His answer intrigued me. The food gathering would not be in the name of any particular church. It would be neighbors cooperating together around a cause that has broad appeal. Who would not want to eliminate hunger? It would attract not just church goers but compassionate people from every sector. And it would promote a sense of community, a common need that most neighbors recognize.

I was intrigued. I fired one question after another — funding, staffing, scale, collection points, warehousing, transportation — and every one had a well reasoned response. The plan had a lot of moving parts with massive logistical and coordinating challenges, but the costs were modest and both human and physical resources were there for the mobilizing. In less than an hour of intense discussion I had become almost persuaded that Kansas City might well become the first hunger-free city in the country.

But there was one remaining issue that was yet to be adequately addressed — distribution. How would tons of collected food actually reach hungry stomachs? Who would ensure that these donations would be properly distributed? Would this food be given away? By whom, in what quantities, under what circumstances? And if it were a free food program, what safeguards would be put in place to prevent multiple-dipping, hoarding, reselling food for drugs? What would keep this from fostering unhealthy dependency and becoming an entitlement program? It was obvious that this distribution issue was a thorny one, one that did not have clean solutions like the collection side of the ledger. Utilizing the existing distribution mechanisms in the city — church food pantries, homeless shelters, feeding stations — did not adequately address these troubling questions.

“We need to get the program going, and soon,” the entrepreneur was back to his sell. “Charlotte has picked up on the idea and wants to be first in the nation to roll it out!” I understood his urgency. Lose the “we’re first” distinction and you lose a good bit of the marketing sizzle. Kansas City was ready now. The plan had been vetted, a representative sample of ministers had responded favorably, there was good support from city government and the social service community. Now was the opportune time to declare Kansas City as the first hunger-free city in US.

The distribution problem could be fixed on the way, he was convinced. I was less sure. Doubling, even tripling the number of distribution outlets in the city would not get at the dependency problem. Computerization might cut down on the abuse of the system, but it would still separate people as “donor” or “recipient,” label them as benevolent or beggar. Computers could not address the pridelessness of one-way giving or the indignity of being a welfare case.

Collecting food, like collecting toys for tots at Christmas, is the easy part — logistically demanding, perhaps, but fascinating fodder for the promoter and entrepreneur. Devising new methods of distribution, on the other hand, methods that enable the poor to participate in reciprocal exchange, methods that require mutual investment on the part of both donor and recipient, methods that offer honest compensation for honest work — such would be a transformation of historic proportions. The hard part does not lie in the creation of new models — food-buying coops, food for community service, wholesale outlets — such models are there for the researching. The hard part is the re-thinking of a well-entrenched give-away mentality and the restructuring of an established one-way charity system. A hunger-free zone may be possible but a dependency-free zone? Now that is a much bigger challenge. I have to admire the Kansas City spirit. A massive and sustained food drive says much about the compassion of a city. But compassion unexamined may not be all that compassionate after all.

Bob Lupton


_________________
David

 2008/1/26 16:08Profile









 Re: How are people dealing with the Real ID act as Christians?



from article above

Quote:
By placing sniffers in strategic areas, companies can invisibly "rifle through people's pockets, purses, suitcases, briefcases, luggage - and possibly their kitchens and bedrooms - anytime of the day or night," says Rasch, now managing director of technology at FTI Consulting Inc., a Baltimore-based company.

I can't find the link on trunuews, which showed there is going to be [i]experimental[/i] RFID in dollar coins.

So much for either a cashless society, personal wealth, or even private poverty. I was planning to return to cash... :-o

Looks like a peasant economy is on its way, as has been predicted. I wonder what alternative to money will be developed by the ever-resourceful survivors of settling in the New World? Something's bound to turn up!

 2008/1/28 14:47









 Re: How are people dealing with the Real ID act as Christians?



I have just been searching for 'Onward Christian Soldiers' for the praise thread - and settings are often in surprising places as you might know by now, so I opened a blogspot, which I don't wish to link to because of some of the pix there. (You know how you wouldn't have opened certain pages if you'd known in advance what you would have found?) But, I want to quote the whole very short article, as I believe it may be of serious interest to parents of young teens, in connection with driving licence RFID.

Within the article, you will see reference to the Beauregard Daily News. For the sake of authenticity I went there. It is $5 for access for a day. Many of the blog titles had a journalistic ring. Please don't be offended. (The year is not on the blog either.)


"Wednesday, November 17
Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching to Bush's War

I thought it a little strange when my son's draft card came in the mail shortly after his 18th birthday. We hadn't decided if we wanted him to sign up for the draft (ya know being that his father and I are former flower children) and finding out just how serious a crime it is to not sign up. Well that was settled. He got a draft card and there was no way to reply or tell anyone that he conscienciously objects to this.

So today, I happened to be reading the Beauregard Daily News in Louisiana and I see that even 15 year olds are being signed up for the draft in advance as soon as they get their licenses. This has greatly disturbed some folks. They contend that when a minor signs the dotted line for a drivers license, it should not be taken as an application for the selective service. According to the article, "Federal law only provides for ''early submission'' of information by a young man who is at least 17 years and three months old, he noted. When he turns 18, it is forwarded to the proper database."

The reporter asked some minors what they think about this:


''I don't care,'' said Mark Fontenot, a 16-year-old student at Apostolic Christian Academy.

Pineville High School student Josh Stokes, 15, said, ''I think it's good.'

''I think it's all right. I can't do anything about it anyway,'' said Stephen White, 16 and a student at Alexandria Senior High School.


Oh boy. "



I wondered how many fifteen year olds, only just developmentally attaining objectivity, can judge the thoughts they might have, three years ahead?

 2008/2/23 18:10
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4498


 Re:

Hi dorcas...

Quote:
"Wednesday, November 17
Onward Christian Soldiers, Marching to Bush's War


I haven't read the article, nor have I kept up with this thread. But I think that the title of the article offers just a bit of "bias" in regard to the theme. "Bush's War?" Last I remember, both houses of Congress (including most Democrats) voted for the war (and have provided funding ever since). The actual air and ground war ended shortly after it began, with only "peacekeeping" operations remaining in Iraq. The tide seems to have turned a bit, and the insurgents seem to have grown more calm.

Anyway, I remember having to register for the Selective Service when I turned 18. My dad took me to the local Post Office. I'm not sure if you're aware, but the Selective Service is [u]not[/u] a draft list. We don't have a draft in the United States. Our military is comprised of an entirely voluteer armed forces.

I think that the goal of the Real Idea Act is simply to provide a driver's license that will prevent fraud -- voter fraud, license fraud, immigration fraud. In Texas, there is a huge problem with ID theft. Literally millions of Mexicans are in the United States illegally, and many of them obtain services provided only to legal residents through the use of ID fraud (and the forging and stealing of identification). In the last election, the Rio Grande Valley in Texas reported many votes from people who never truly voted. How? Someone stole their identity, obtained a driver's license and voted.

In some states (like California), it is legal for illegal immigrants to obtain driver's licenses. A national ID -- governed by the Federal Government and using each state's driver's license -- could prevent the issuing a license to people here illegally. Like it or not, Americans must have a social security card. They must have photo identification with them in many states. The desire for a national identification is only hoped to prevent id theft and illegal activity. With millions and millions of people here illegally, it might save a lot of time and money to have a card that is understood through a federal database, rather than the database of a flawed state.

I understand the apprehension to such a system, but it is, in reality, simply a perfection of a system that is already in place -- regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/2/23 19:47Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4498


 Re:

*EDIT*

Duplicate post.


_________________
Christopher

 2008/2/23 19:49Profile









 Re: How are people dealing with the Real ID act as Christians?



Hi Chris,

I admit I assumed the draft list was something compulsory associated with the potential to be called up for military service. I do remember that this is not the case at this present time, though. Here's another BBC link about US plans to control illegal immiagration from Mexico.

[url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7260179.stm]US-Mexico 'virtual fence' ready [/url]

'A high-technology system to control the US-Mexico border with cameras and radar instead of a physical fence has gained government approval, US officials say.
The $20m 'virtual fence' already covers 28 miles (48km) of the border between Arizona state and Mexico.

The system has already helped catch smugglers, and would be deployed elsewhere, said US Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.

But he said plans to complete 770 miles (1,130km) of physical fence remain.

"I have personally witnessed the value of this system," said Mr Chertoff. '


Please take a look at the whole article.


EDIT: Presumably this fence also has the potential to stop Americans leaving. Would that pose much problem, do you think?



 2008/2/23 20:11
awakenwithin
Member



Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 985
AZ

 Re:

I just heard about the Id act, there are 4 states that are fighting against it, Maine MOntana, Idaho and south Carolina. They are trying to get a bill passed. They said that there is over 600 org that working on this bill.
When looking who they where it was lots of jewish and catholic and other america freedom org. You can get the more info at www.aclu.org for a copy of the bill/
when thinking about, it just aother Id care right? there should no harm in this? there are 22 states that are againt the ID at this time.

I still know so little about it, thanks for info posted.


_________________
charlene

 2008/3/13 21:28Profile
awakenwithin
Member



Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 985
AZ

 Re:

I just heard about the Id act, there are 4 states that are fighting against it, Maine MOntana, Idaho and south Carolina. They are trying to get a bill passed. They said that there is over 600 org that working on this bill.
When looking who they where it was lots of jewish and catholic and other america freedom org. You can get the more info at www.aclu.org for a copy of the bill/
when thinking about, it just aother Id care right? there should no harm in this? there are 22 states that are againt the ID at this time.

I still know so little about it, thanks for info posted.


_________________
charlene

 2008/3/13 21:29Profile





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