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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
By ‘grace’ everyone has been given ‘the measure of faith’ it is up to everyone what they do with it.



This is a mis-quotation of Romans 12:3 used to try to say that all men have faith. Here is the verse-
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Who are the men Paul is speaking of here? Christians of course, and that is why he goes on in the next verses-
Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Romans 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Romans 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Every member of the church has been given faith by God, not every man in the world.

Misapplication of Scripture has led to most of the mistakes in dealing with these issues. One cannot apply to the world Scriptures only meant for the Church, you will end up in confusion.


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patrick heaviside

 2008/1/21 16:16Profile









 Re:

Quote:
David Cloud has repeatedly been taken to task, and proven wrong in his supposed anti-Calvinist rants.



I dont want to get off the topic here, but David Cloud is a good man, and tho challenged on this (and many other topics) I would hardly say he has been "proven wrong". The only reason to say that is because you support whoever it was who challenged him... and you cant see how your guy could ever be wrong... because you agree with him.

So lets not get into a debate about what teacher prooved another teacher wrong. I just want to know from y'all how you view this issue. Not what big name theologian supports your point of view.

Krispy

 2008/1/21 16:25









 Re:

Quote:
The Bible is clear, Jesus specifically in his prayer-that Judas is lost, and lost eternally-so if "all" in 1 Tim 2:3-4 means "ALL"-then this would have to even include him, the anti-christ, the false prophet, and ALL the people in hell right now.



So you're saying God didnt grieve over the decisions that Judas made? Jesus wasnt hurt by Judas' actions? Why would they be... they made him do it.

How cruel is that? Create a human being just to destroy his life, and then throw him into a pit of fire forever? Sounds like a hellish nightmare to me.

Not sure I want to serve a God like that. Scripture says God is love. Is that love you're describing?

No, I believe ALL means ALL... even Judas, the anti-Christ, etc. But they have chosen to reject Him. God has forknowledge of this, but does He want this or make this happen? Not sure.

If I tell my kids "you stick your tongue into that outlet you'll get fried!" ... and they do it, and what I said happened... does that mean I predestined that to happen? No, but I did have forknowledge that it would.

Krispy

 2008/1/21 16:30









 Re:

Krispy, I actually was not being sarcastic, but quite serious about changing the definitions of words.

As one word "WORLD" is being tossed around here.

I had asked Roaringlamb on another post exactly like this concerning Faith.

Why would the NT Saints need help in being regenerated to have faith when no such regeneration was needed in the OT. Has the meaning of Faith changed from old to new? ( or rather has calvinism changed the meaning of faith since OT, and if so where did this change come...what scriptures.


These are extremely serious questions that no one wants to give an answer to.

We are saved by grace through faith....so the foundation of faith is where to target.

Why in the NT does one have to be regenerated...Born Again first to be able to have faith..

Hebrews 11 tell us faith in the OT was as much in the coming redeemer as is in the New. There is only one faith that can save, faith in Jesus Christ.

Abel's sacrifice based on the promise of the redeemer of Genesis 3:15 was and is the same substance of faith we place in Jesus Christ crucified and risen.

Abel was not regenerated first to have faith.

Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/21 16:32
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

No brother, Cloud generalizes and makes statements about what Calvinists believe that are not true. Whether he is purposely doing this, or doing so because he does not understand Calvinism I do not know. I hope the latter.

Either way, you can never persuade people if you offer wrong ideas about what they do or do not believe.

I'm sure Cloud is a wonderful brother in the Lord, and that is not up for debate here at all.

Plus if you can vouch for him then he must be a ok ;-)


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/21 16:35Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
The Bible is clear, Jesus specifically in his prayer-that Judas is lost, and lost eternally-so if "all" in 1 Tim 2:3-4 means "ALL"-then this would have to even include him, the anti-christ, the false prophet, and ALL the people in hell right now.



So you're saying God didnt grieve over the decisions that Judas made? Jesus wasnt hurt by Judas' actions? Why would they be... they made him do it.

How cruel is that? Create a human being just to destroy his life, and then throw him into a pit of fire forever? Sounds like a hellish nightmare to me.

Not sure I want to serve a God like that. Scripture says God is love. Is that love you're describing?

No, I believe ALL means ALL... even Judas, the anti-Christ, etc. But they have chosen to reject Him. God has forknowledge of this, but does He want this or make this happen? Not sure.

If I tell my kids "you stick your tongue into that outlet you'll get fried!" ... and they do it, and what I said happened... does that mean I predestined that to happen? No, but I did have forknowledge that it would.

Krispy



So you are saying that at some point even the anti-christ had the CHANCE to be saved? (Though the Bible never teaches anywhere that I am aware of that the anti-christ REJECTED salvation)

 2008/1/21 16:35Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Who did Christ die for?

Confusion leads to spiritual paralysis and an inability to act or function leading to panic attacks, depression and death.

I don’t know what I believe I know Whom I believe

Did those two men have any converts or were they authors of confusion?

I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


_________________
Eddie

 2008/1/21 16:41Profile









 Re: Who did Christ die for?



Hello Patrick (roaringlamb),

There are a lot of other verses about seeing in the New Testament, much more than Isaiah's prophecy although it also was true of course.

[color=0000FF]John 6
36 But I said unto you, That [u]ye also have seen me, [b]and believe not[/b][/u].
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: [u]whosoever sinneth hath not seen him[/u], [b]neither known him[/b].
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [i]are[/i] they that have not seen, and [i]yet[/i] have believed.


Mark 5:6
But when he [Legion} [u]saw Jesus[/u] afar off, he ran and worshipped him,


John 12:21
The same [Greeks] came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, [u]we would see Jesus[/u].


Luke 19: Zaccheus


John 21:7
Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, 'It is the Lord'. Now when Simon Peter [u]heard that it was the Lord[/u], he girt [i]his[/i] fisher's coat [i]unto him[/i], (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.


2 Corinthians 3 [i]Tyndale[/i]
16 Nevertheless [u]when they [b]turn[/b] to the [b]Lord[/b][/u], the vail shall be taken away.

Romans 1:19 - 21
'... because [u]that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed[/u] [i]it[/i] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [i]even[/i] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified [i]him[/i] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [/color]

There seem to be people who look but don't see, people who see but don't believe, people who hear and believe although they did't see, and people who despite demons or distance, make the journey until they are close enough to see.


Right up until Romans 2:4, there is an opportunity to [u]turn[/u]. After [i]turning[/i] there is much more which can be [u]seen[/u], such as the Lord Himself, the kingdom of heaven and other believers.

 2008/1/21 16:44
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I had asked Roaringlamb on another post exactly like this concerning Faith.



Glad you brought this back up.

In the OT God had to reveal Himself to men above that which is in nature. Many around the people of Israel had "faith" in other gods, but Yahweh revealed Himself by speaking and promising a Savior. He also revealed Himself in the pillar of fire, and the cloud, and on Mount Sinai. And yes, there were some from neighboring nations that were brought into Israel, but it was based upon revelation of God that they came. Like Rahab who told the spies that she had heard all that God had done to the enemies of Israel.

The promise of the New Covenant though is a new heart, in which God's Law is written. When God announces this New Covenant through the prophets Ezekiel and Jeremiah, He says repeatedly, " I will, I will, I will..." It never mentions man's ability or "free will" but instead God's work.

So the new heart that we need to believe in Christ is given to us by God, and from this "new tree" come fruits of faith and repentance, and a desire to obey the God who we for so long had offended.

How do we know that God did not change the hearts of the OT saints as well?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/21 16:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:
No brother, Cloud generalizes and makes statements about what Calvinists believe that are not true. Whether he is purposely doing this, or doing so because he does not understand Calvinism I do not know. I hope the latter.



This is interesting because I have come to discover that the number one defense a Calvinist uses is "You dont understand Calvinism".

This seems to be used a lot when a Calvinist gets seriously challenged. Not saying this is what you're doing, but this is a trend I've noticed.

Personally I have my doubts as to whether or not Calvinists even understand Calvinism... it seems to be such a confusing system of beliefs. What ever happened to the simplicity of the gospel?

Krispy

 2008/1/21 16:52





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