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 Re:

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So see theology matters, and it's not all philosophical fluff. The heart of Luther and Calvin was both for the souls of their people, as both were first and foremost pastors. They were concerned over those who were without hope in this world because they had been lied to by the Roman Catholic Church about indulgences, and traditions.



Really? Is this why Calvin had no problem ordering the death of those who didnt agree with his particular theology? I have avoided bringing that up because it is a distraction from what we're discussing... but I cant let you get away with saying that without the other side of the coin being shown.

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I know people like to put horns and a tail on Calvin...



No, Calvin did a fine job putting horns and a tail on himself. He didnt need anyone's help.

Krispy

 2008/1/23 16:17









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I've often contemplated coaching youth hockey, as it seems like a unique avenue into the lives of young men. It would be great to share with them.



It's an incredible ministry that God has called me to. I love coaching, but I especially love using my abilities to be a godly influence on young men.

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Right now though, I am preparing for a second surgery to repair torn ligaments and tendons in my wrist(tomorrow), and possibly a pin through it to hold it together. So needless to say, hockey is an after thought right now.



Yea... I'm in the market for a orthopetic surgeon right now too. Got some shoulder issues... severe pain at times. Need to get some "saw-bones" to fix me up before football starts in 4 months. I think I tore something weight lifting. Not as young as I used to be.

Krispy

 2008/1/23 16:20
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

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For example, most Arminians would say, "Jesus died for your sins, He paid it all."

But then, shortly after this, they present a bill that you must pay in order to show how "thankful" you are. That is another law, it is not salvation by grace, because they make it about works.

brother, we all expect to see fruit out of our faith in Christ. both camps do that. if a person who professes Christ for 5 years, but bears little to no fruit, what would you say about him? you would say that man is either not saved or has not learned to walk and rest in Christ. by what do you base that off?? his fruit (actions). we all do that. none of us know who is saved and who isn't, so we preach the gospel and command that believers show fruit resulting from walking with Him and Him abiding in us. how is this any different than what you would say and do?

would you tell someone who was a professed believer for 10 years and has left the church and denied Christ for another 10 years that he is saved and not to doubt his salvation? no, you would not. you would probably say that he was what 1 john 2:19 talks about and that the man should expect nothing but the judgement of God. why? because he has shown that he has not persevered or rather that God has not persevered him because according to many people, that believer is not saved.

all i am saying is that both sides expect to see fruit from conversion. it is not that we are saved by works, but works are the natural result of walking and abiding in Him. it is not a works-faith, but a faith that works. that is all i am trying to say. sorry it took so long.
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What if one Sunday you are told that a man is saved by faith, but then the next Sunday you hear that if you have an unconfessed sin in your life and are hit by a bus you will go to hell, what do you think will be the result?

that is an extreme that should be avoided such as telling someone that because he/she has professed Christ that no matter how much they sin and live in it, they are saved. both are extreme and should not be taught.
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The whole issue starts and ends with original sin, and if you view man as dead in sin, then God must give him life.

If man is only wounded, then he only needs a little help to get up on his feet, and can carry on on his own afterwards

both sides agree that man is dead in sin, the difference lies in whether the natural man can by the Holy Spirit be awakened to his state. non-calvinists believe that natural man can be awakened by the Holy Spirit and repent and believe on Christ. calvinists do not believe that a natural man can repent and believe on Him. therein lies the difference to what i see.

nevertheless, to me whether one repents and is saved or is saved and repents matters little, but are we commanding men to repent from their sins, deny themselves and believe on Him?? that is of supreme importance.

phil

 2008/1/23 16:35Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

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Is this why Calvin had no problem ordering the death of those who didnt agree with his particular theology?



Brother, time and again people have tried this tactic to no avail. Calvin was not the one who killed Michael Servetus. The Geneva council was.

Servetus had already sealed his own death as he was branded a heretic by both the Roman Catholic Church, and the Genevan city council.

John Calvin was not a member of this council, and as a matter of fact they hated Calvin because he told them to stay out of Church affairs, such as who could or could not take communion.

Calvin also visited Servetus and begged him to repent of his heretical teachings, which were the denial of the trinity, and be delivered from death. Calvin also went to the council and begged them to at least kill him in a more humane way.

Again, this is what I am talking about when I say, don't jump to conclusions until you have looked at both sides. I did this for many years, and had to learn to enjoy "crow" for all the garbage I believed about this man John Calvin. I believed it because I never checked for myself, but simply parroted what others told me.

It pays to look at both sides and make a Scripture based decision.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/23 16:35Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

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that is an extreme that should be avoided such as telling someone that because he/she has professed Christ that no matter how much they sin and live in it, they are saved. both are extreme and should not be taught.



You make a good point, but how many sins is "living in sin", and how many sins can I commit and get away with it?(Not asking for myself, but just in general)

See, I think we need to move away from this idea of climbing a ladder to Heaven, and realize that the old and the new remain together until the day of glory, and they war against one another.

God's purpose is to bring man back to living with Him in faith as Adam did before the fall is it not?


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patrick heaviside

 2008/1/23 16:41Profile









 Re:

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Brother, time and again people have tried this tactic to no avail. Calvin was not the one who killed Michael Servetus. The Geneva council was.





Here is a site written by a Calvinist
stating:

http://www.tlogical.net/biocalvin.htm

[b]Many who know nothing else of either Calvin or Servetus are very indignant over the tragedy, and apparently reject Calvinism because of it. We ought rather to mourn than to censure. Servetus knew the danger he braved in coming to Geneva. He had as early as 1534 been in debate with Calvin, although they did not meet personally. On his intimating an intention to visit Geneva, Calvin gave him fair warning, that, if he came, he would prosecute him to the death." Nam si modo valeat mea auctoritas vivum exire nunquam patiar (I shall never permit him to depart alive if my authority is great enough)." Calvin to Farel, Feb. 13, 1546 (cf. Calvin's Letters, Eng. transl., ii. 33). While, therefore, Calvin may be held responsible for Servetus's death, he must be cleared of the charges of having allured Servetus to Geneva, and of rejoicing in his death on personal grounds.[/b]

Katy

 2008/1/23 16:56
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

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You make a good point, but how many sins is "living in sin", and how many sins can I commit and get away with it?(Not asking for myself, but just in general)

seeing how the bible doesn't put any number, i would hesistate to do so. but i think we would be wise to forsake thinking in terms of "how many sins is too much and how many is ok" (not saying that you are). if we continually put ourselves before Him and our lives in His hands, then we will never care to ask those kind of questions or think in those terms. we will live with such a fear of God and with such an abandon to His ways and His pursuits and His desires that we will never care about that stuff. that is all that i see that matters to God. loving God and loving others, for on these hang all the Law and the prophets.
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See, I think we need to move away from this idea of climbing a ladder to Heaven,

i hope no one clings to that idea, but by the grace of God sees Him as the I AM that He is.
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God's purpose is to bring man back to living with Him in faith as Adam did before the fall is it not?

brother if this is our goal then we have surpassed this. we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us to teach us about Christ. but if this is our end then we have missed His ultimate purpose " to sum all things up in Christ". to that end God works and so should we. that kind of stuff makes all this calvinism/non-calvinism stuff dwarf in comparison to Him, ya know??

anyways, it's always fun talking to you.
phil

 2008/1/23 17:03Profile









 Re:

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You make a good point, but how many sins is "living in sin", and how many sins can I commit and get away with it?(Not asking for myself, but just in general)



You're not promoting Christian perfection, are you?... lol

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See, I think we need to move away from this idea of climbing a ladder to Heaven,



I dont recall anyone here coming close to even suggesting there was such a thing.

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...and realize that the old and the new remain together until the day of glory, and they war against one another.



Amen to that. I am the poster child for this.

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God's purpose is to bring man back to living with Him in faith as Adam did before the fall is it not?



You're absolutely right on the mark with what you just said... but I believe a TRUE Calvinist would say it like this:

"God's purpose is to bring [b]SOME MEN[/b] back to living with Him in faith as Adam did before the fall is it not?"

...and I reject that.

Krispy

 2008/1/23 17:07
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
to that end God works and so should we. that kind of stuff makes all this calvinism/non-calvinism stuff dwarf in comparison to Him, ya know??



Absolutely

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anyways, it's always fun talking to you.



The same to you as well brother, I enjoy being able to speak to one another and cover controversial issues while maintaining brotherly love. It shows others that these kinds of conversations can go on without arrogance and foolish attacks.

Grace to you brother.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/23 17:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
brother if this is our goal then we have surpassed this. we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us to teach us about Christ.



I know one major factor is really overlooked here.

Grace...The Spirit of God.

These were all things the Jews rejected, the Gospel of Grace with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Before Paul's conversion, he was a religious man, so much so he too murdered to preserve the faith....however it was not THE Faith.


As a man who knew the importance of True Faith after his conversion, and holding to the Faith Paul never killed again defending the Faith..the Real True Faith of the Gospel of Grace!


Now that's **true** Faith...not religion.

Katy

 2008/1/23 17:11





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