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luke133
Member



Joined: 2005/4/28
Posts: 13


 Re: Who did Christ die for?

The Calvinist/Arminian debate can be entirely avoided by looking at the understanding of the early church (Pre-Nicene) on these matters(I reccomend www.scrollpublishing.com). Calvinism is clearly rooted in Gnosticism and was brought into the church by Augustine who was converted as a Manichean(I hope I spelled that right!) and Luther/Calvin simply revived his theology. The only way that Calvinism stands is by proof texting, it can never stand up to the whole tenor of scripture. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, he is the propitiation for our sins and NOT OURS ONLY BUT THOSE OF THE ENTIRE WORLD(2Cor. 5.19 ,1John 2.2)!

 2008/1/21 19:41Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Augustine who was converted as a Manichean(



So, I'm assuming you have read Augustine's writings against Manichean ideology?

To assume that these men knew nothing of the Church Fathers' writings is preposterous as that is where much of their ideas came from.

Now if we simply return to the Nicene Creed, or even pre-Nicene creed, we expose ourselves to the heresies of which these were written to refute. We could I suppose forget all about justification by faith alone, because that came after the Nicene creed too, and while we're at it, we could all head straight back to Rome.

The Historic Protestant view of Scripture is under much attack in our days as is to be expected as Satan would love nothing more than to rob people of their joy in Christ, and yoke them back to a works righteousness. See this issue is very big, it is the hinge upon which the Church stands or falls.

If Christ alone, does not save people fully apart from works, then we might as well join back up with the Roman Catholic Church. That is how big of an issue it is.

I suppose too that you are familiar with the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD, which dealt with the Arian heresy of Christ not being God? This would have to be left out if we went back to pre-Nicene times or thought.

Of course there is the Athanasian Creed which laid the ground work for the trinity, and was against those who denied the trinity. So we would have to give this up as well.

Then there is the Council of Orange of 529 AD which is perhaps one of the best resources for showing that the ideas of "Calvinism" were around long before Calvin was alive. Here is an excerpt-

[i]CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19).[/i]

[i]CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12).[/i]

Oh how much we would lose if only we would just go back to pre-Nicene ideology.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/21 20:33Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Calvinism is clearly rooted in Gnosticism



Can you provide proof of this?

Brother/sister, I am sorry to be hard upon you, but too many simply repeat faulty information that they have heard about Calvinism and never look into it themselves, I was one of them so I speak from experience.

In any debate, you must be able to back up your statements, you cannot simply come out and say something that negatively portrays the other view without some proof.

For instance I could say, "all Mormons ride bicycles." But that is not true, because if one Mormon did not ride a bicycle, I would be wrong. Many do ride bicycles, but not all.

I hope you understand what I am getting at, and please do not take this personally.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/21 20:39Profile
repentcanada
Member



Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659


 Re: Who did Christ die for?

brother Krispy thanks for this original thread. I cant wait to read it in its entirety.

(ps - who's taking the super bowl krispy)

 2008/1/21 20:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:
(ps - who's taking the super bowl krispy)



I couldnt care less... I hate both those teams. I was really hoping that Green Bay would make it this year... but when I saw Farve throw that interception in overtime... my heart sank.

New York and New England?? I'm a southern boy... neither of those yankee teams hold any fascination for me.

Krispy

 2008/1/22 7:50









 Re: Who did Christ die for?

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Did Christ die for:

A) All the sins of all the people.

B) Some of the sins of all the people.

C) All of the sins of some of the people.

Please choose which one you believe, and explain why.

Krispy



"For God so loved THE WORLD". The father loved the entire world so much that he gave his only son as a sacrifice for the entire world.

The danger of Calvinism is that alot of people get it in theri heads that they can't be saved because they think their not one of the elect. It also causes doubt and leaves a person thinking "Am I doing enough. Am I percervering". It's hopeless trying to witness to these people. I heard one pastor say one time that it takes ten years to win a Mennonite to the Lord. I don't know alot about the Mennonites, but I do know they are Calvinists.
As far as losing ones salvation. Jhon 3:16 says "EVERLASTING LIFE". If you could lose it that would be a short lived everlasting life. lol

 2008/1/22 8:12









 Re:

Quote:
Krispy, I don't know if you missed what I wrote earlier about this, but please read Romans 12, and then tell me this is what Paul is saying.



I believe, having just read this verse again at your suggestion, that what this is saying is that God has given a certain capacity, or measure, of faith to each man. Some greater than others, and totally at His discretion. But I also believe He [b]allows[/b] (thats the key word) men to reject it, or not use it.

Now... I'm a simple country boy, not a great theologian. I like to break things down as simply as I can. So let me ask you this...

Last night I was watching my 3 yr old and 4 yr old boys playing on the living room floor. They were setting up for the "mother of all battles". They were lining up their plastic soldiers, dinosaurs, cowboys, knights, football players, Civil War soldiers, Veggie Tales characters... you name it. As the battle began they each would move their "warriors" around behind the piano bench, up on the hearth, over behind the recliner... where ever they felt they needed to be. They would throw small balls at the other's soldiers. The two were in complete control of every action and movement of this battle.

And I thought... is this what Calvinists believe? God is moving and creating us as if we were pawns? We have no say in the matter of salvation... we're either created for heaven or for hell? God controls every aspect of our lives, even sinful men? Am I to believe that when a man sins he can not help himself? God, in His wisdom ordained before the beginning of the world that this old man they caught down in Georgia a few weeks ago would murder an elderly couple (that lived about 5 miles from me) while they were hiking in the Pisgah National Forest? So in other words, that was God's idea? To have this man murder them?

I wanna know... is this Calvinism? Did God preordain that murder? Did God make that man commit that murder?

Or does God, in His wisdom, opt to give man a choice... knowing full well that He [i]could[/i] take complete control over us, yet He chooses not to?

Krispy

 2008/1/22 8:15









 Re:

Romans 12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, [u]according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.[/u]

4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:



The Measure of Faith here is talking about those all ready in the Body of Christ, given a measure of faith in the use of the Gifts of the Spirit given to the Members of the Body.

But what does this have to do with our being Justified by Faith, a totally different subject.

We are first asked as Christians to present ourselves a living sacrifice HOLY and acceptable which is our reasonable [u][b]service[/b][/u].

Are we confusing service with Salvation? We're not saved by serving God, but obedient to the Lord for our walk in Him, using our Gifts for the building up of the Saints...AFTER we are saved...Ephesians 4

Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/22 8:47









 Re:

Quote:
The Measure of Faith here is talking about those all ready in the Body of Christ, given a measure of faith in the use of the Gifts of the Spirit given to the Members of the Body.



Yea, I can see that... the commentaries seem to agree with this as well. I think perhaps at some point (probably while still in WOF) I've heard that piece of scripture taken out of context, and I need to rethink it and seek the Lord as to it's true meaning.

Thanks Katy

Krispy

 2008/1/22 8:54









 Re:

What do y'all think of this statement?

[i]The Scriptures teach that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God involved the sin of the world (John 1:29) and that the Savior’s work of redemption (1 Tim. 2:6; 2 Pet. 2:1), reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:19) and propitiation (1 John 2:2) was for all men (1 Tim. 4:10), but the cross–work of Christ is efficient, effectual and applicable only for those who believe (1 Tim. 4:10; John 3:16). We could even say it in a simpler way: "Christ’s death was SUFFICIENT FOR ALL but EFFICIENT only for those who believe." The cross–work of Christ is not limited, but the application of that cross–work through the work of the Holy Spirit is limited to believers only."[/i]

Krispy

 2008/1/22 8:58





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