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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Sorry to rehash

This is reliy bothering me, if we would only get rid of these rediculous theories(theology/doctrines) we could see God as we should and the atheists would be able to reconcile the God of the Bible with what THEY think a good God would do.

This is not a "fairness" issue, but a justice issue.

No one has yet explained these injustices that some men put to God by their theology/doctrines.
Please explain each point.

[b]1:[/b] Some people make the Atonement to be only for a chosen few(the Elect) where God is not ALL Loving and very finite in grace. In contrast which the Atonement is for all and is ALL Loving and infinite in grace.

[b]2:[/b] Please explain that God would Create men that are the non-chosen, non-elect. These must be hated creations, for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell. Therefore, man is doing that which he was created to do, that is to sin & yet, being condemd for it.
The non-elect have no grace to be saved because the Atonement is not for them.
They were never suposed to be saved in the first place, which makes them created only to be distroyed in hell.
Therefore, they are not in hell for what they have done, but in hell for that wich they were created for.

[b]3:[/b] Please explain that man can not even do what is required to be right with God which is to repent and put his faith in/on Christ.
Man is condemned for that wich is unavoidable.

[b]4:[/b] Please explain that one must be "regenerated" first before he can even attempt to repent and put his faith in/on Christ. This theology makes God wrathful and hating man because He Himself would not let them obey by not regenerating them.
Man is guilty for what God will not do.

This puts the blame on God for not giving them the ability to obey the command to repent and to put his faith in/on Christ.

[b]5:[/b] Please explain why God would condemn man from the result of His own doing.
This is God making man candemned before the crime of sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam".
By this, God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".

[b]6:[/b] Please explain why God would make a world with sin when HE could have made one that didn't.
This means that He chose the world that has sin over the one that didn't. This, in turn, means that He wanted sin to exist, & yet condemns for that which HE wills.

When the truth is that God could not have made a world woith out sin and not infringe on free will.
(He couldn't have made a world with no sin by making a world with no laws, God is not lawless)

[b]7:[/b] Please explain how God wanted Adam to sin.
Some say this as true.

[b]8:[/b] Please explain how those who are pre-selected to hell in contraposition to the Elect, can not ever repent because God refuses to give them the ability(regeneration) and condemns for it.
(Man is guilty for what God pre-ordains to be.)


I never did get a point by point explaination, if there is any.

 2008/1/12 12:17Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Sorry to rehash

Brother you have been lead by the hand through Scripture by myself and others.

Here is the explanation if you "choose" to accept it-
It is because God has decided it to be so, and He works ALL things according to His will.

There it is, and I am not going to go through this again, perhaps someone else can take up the challenge, but I have been through this with you already.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/12 12:48Profile









 Re: Sorry to rehash

Hi Logic, I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough to answer all of those points, but hopefully I can help with 1 and 2.

Quote:
1: Some people make the Atonement to be only for a chosen few(the Elect) where God is not ALL Loving and very finite in grace. In contrast which the Atonement is for all and is ALL Loving and infinite in grace.



John 3:16 says [i]that whoever believes in him shall not perish...[/i] It's about people perishing because they choose not to believe in God, not God condemning people for not allowing them to choose God.

2 Peter 3:9 - [i]He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.[/i] God doesn't want anyone to perish, and so He has not made the atonement for 'a chosen few'.

However, bear in mind 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 -

'and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.'

Verse 11 on its own would suggest that it's God's fault that men perish, because He deludes them. But verse 10 says that [i]they perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.[/i] So God only sends them into this powerful delusion because they've already chosen to reject love and the truth. Man has a choice.

So then 2:

Quote:
2: Please explain that God would Create men that are the non-chosen, non-elect. These must be hated creations, for the very purpose of being destroyed in hell. Therefore, man is doing that which he was created to do, that is to sin & yet, being condemd for it.
The non-elect have no grace to be saved because the Atonement is not for them.
They were never suposed to be saved in the first place, which makes them created only to be distroyed in hell.
Therefore, they are not in hell for what they have done, but in hell for that wich they were created for.



This would follow on from Point 1 that you made, because God has not created anyone to go to hell. If anything, he's created everyone to go to heaven and accept His love, because again 2 Peter 3:9 - [i]He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.[/i] If God wants everyone to come to repentance, that would suggest that it's in His will for that to happen. However, it is man's decision whether to accept or reject that.

The whole idea of man choosing whether to accept or reject God and so, ultimately, go to hell and pay for their sins in eternal separation from God, does not put God out of complete control. He doesn't choose who goes to hell and who goes to heaven, that is man's decision. But God is all-knowing, and He knows who is going to choose Him and who isn't.

God does not create people specifically for the purpose of going to hell.

 2008/1/12 13:04
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re: Sorry to rehash

The whole of creation should have been cast into Hell in the time of Noah. Only by God's mercy is there even one person left. He chose 8 souls and repented of He wrath which we all deserve.

Why is it so hard to see that God must be God and man cannot?


Romans 9:14-26 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Then He Killed His Own Son just to be able to save you, for you cannot save yourself. You cannot put God in your little box. I guarantee He will get out. I had Him in my box for a long time, until He took my world and turned it upside down and shredded the box.

WE will never get out of His box though.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/1/12 13:28Profile
poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re:

in a nutshell, God is soverign.
Satan didnt like it, so he tried to do something about it and was cast out.
If God chooses you, for Christ, from the beginning, you have a choice to repent and be saved. Or reject him and be cast into outer darkness.
When we use logic to figure out HIS ways we will loose every time.

If you have been chosen, and you repent and Get the good graces from God to realize you are a sinner and need a saviour, he will save you.
If not, well then you wont be saved.
As a vessel of his mercy, be grateful for his mercy and Love him and adore him.
When we become humanists we miss what God is all about, its not about us it's about what gives God his good pleasure.


_________________
howard

 2008/1/12 14:11Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Brother you have been lead by the hand through Scripture by myself and others.

It is by those Scriptures that you lead me by the hand to with your interp of them that these point are from.
These poaint are the conlusion of your interp of the Scriptures.

Quote:
Here is the explanation if you "choose" to accept it-
It is because God has decided it to be so, and He works ALL things according to His will.

No, that is not the explanation, it is your sorry exuse for not being able to justify these points.

Do you not see any atrocities in these points that I put forth?

 2008/1/12 14:18Profile
poet
Member



Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
Longview WA

 Re:

Quote:
This is reliy bothering me, if we would only get rid of these rediculous theories(theology/doctrines) we could see God as we should and the atheists would be able to reconcile the God of the Bible with what THEY think a good God would do.



Is God going to become a God that other people think they need for them to believe in?
Wouldnt that be making a God of thier own design?
Isnt this called Idolatry?
Paganism?
Fornication?
Millions upon Millions of people are going to Hell because they follow a God that does not exist, or they follow God by name only , but not in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
Churches are Full of Humanism,
God is not a humanist. He is Soverign, and Chooses who he chooses, reject who he rejects,
If you hear his call dont harden your heart against the spirit, or you will be rejected and he will harden your heart, and when that happens there will be no more room for repentance.


_________________
howard

 2008/1/12 14:27Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
The whole of creation should have been cast into Hell in the time of Noah.

That is only because God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".

Quote:
Why is it so hard to see that God must be God and man cannot?

What is that suposed to mean?
Is it that God can do anything HE wants to do, even unjustifialbe things, just because HE is God?

Your quote of Romans 9 does not mean the same to me as it does to you, therefore do not yous [b]only sriture[/b] to make your point. Pleas put in your own words that your trying to say from that Scripture.
I do not see any injustices in Romans 9.

It does not say, "God is God and you are not, so you have no right to demand these answers from God."(Rom 9:19-21)

Quote:
You cannot put God in your little box.

His Box is what we call reality and the laws that govern it.
He gave us all a sence of justice and these 8 points in my first post are so very contrary to it.
These 8 points in my first post are only the conclusion to the theologies/doctrines that men have fabricated out of very bad interp of the scriptures.

I am suprised that no one sees the atrocities which some theologies/doctrines conclude to.

 2008/1/12 14:39Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Logic, I hope you are well.

Logic, I saw this,

"That is only because God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".



I'm not sure this is the case myself. Maybe this is something we could look at?


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/12 14:41Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
poet wrote:
in a nutshell, God is soverign.

Your definition of soverignty must be wrong if you say that HIS soverignty makes these atrocities justifyable.

Quote:
If you have been [b]chosen[/b], and you repent and Get the good graces from God to realize you are a sinner and need a saviour, he will save you.

What did thos who were not yet born do to deserver damnation by being the non-elect(being chosen)?

Quote:
As a vessel of his mercy, be grateful for his mercy and Love him and adore him.

How could a vessel of his dishonor(according to your interp) ever have an ability to love Him?

Quote:
When we become humanists we miss what God is all about, its not about us [b]it's about what gives God his good pleasure.[/b]

I am not coming from a humanist view point.
God's [b]Good pleasure[/b] must be [b]good[/b] in all respects, even to the condemned.

God does not condemn by HIS good pleasure, why would HE take plesure in creating a sentient being for the sole purpose of being condemed(creating the non-elect, according to your interp, theology/doctrine)?

 2008/1/12 14:51Profile





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