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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

westminister: "the chief and of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever"

David: "the chief and of God is to make man happy"

;-)

Quote:

I dont know of anyone who got saved just to make God happy



I know Jesus did everything for his father, so that is available to us.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/12/15 16:56Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

I will say this...you nor I could stand in Gods presence very long. It takes getting used to. It is Gods presence that convicts.
Not my abilitty to preach or have such right on doctrine.
His presence absolutely disarms and bringss the best of us to our knees.
When God shows up the worrk begins in man. Man is the center of all God does.

Better to have God show up then all the "doctrinally correct 'ministers' on the planet"

David

 2007/12/15 17:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
It doesnt matter to me if i am the only christian on the planet that believes benny hinn, rodney howard browne, and steve hill are all men of God. People can say or think what they will.
It also doesnt matter to me if they go down in history as men that made a mistake or two, or men that were slightly off.
Because all men are those things.

It ought to matter to you Bro. That you seem unable, and even worse, unwilling to discern between truth and error is very disturbing for any who wish you well.

This isn't a matter of different opinions, or of men of God who "made a mistake or two", or "were slightly off", but that [i][b]you personally are in spiritual danger because of lack of discernment![/b][/i]

If you [i]really[/i] don't care then there is nothing anyone can do to help you, and your blood is upon your own head, but I beg you to listen, and at least [u]ask the Lord to show you[/u] if there is any truth in what is being said to you about this. That is what I would do in your situation, not defy the whole world to wrest these human "idols" from you! I would be very distresseed about it, but would go to the Lord Himself to know what HE thinks.

He always answers an honest prayer like that...

Quote:
Also ....do a study on "lying" signs and wonders and miracles.
This is mainly referring to the beast and anttichrist.the time of "false" is given power[possibly from heaven]
And this is what is talked about concerning last days deception...

Exactly! And we are already in those days of deception!

This is already happening...
2Tim 3: [color=990000]13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.[/color]

If we are deceived by those who are so deeply in deception we may even end up in the camp of those who welcome the Antichrist by mistake, as many Gernman Christians apparently welcomed Hitler!

Re the speakers who were mentioned, I'm not sure about the others, (especially Benny Hinn, who I get the impression has only "gone off" comparatively recently) but I saw a meeting with Rodney Howard Browne, and he showed [i]obvious[/i] demonic manifestations, which were claimed to be of the Holy Spirit!

I didn't need people like Zach Poonen or Art Katz to show me that there was something wrong!

If you think such a one as Rodney Howard Browne is a man of God then you are in trouble - especially if you don't even care!

But don't say that you haven't been warned...

love in Jesus

jeannette

 2007/12/15 18:15
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Dear David.

Have you ever considered prayerfully that you may be following a false teacher(s) ? you know there is a chance you may be wrong ? your experiences can be be very wonderful, but that is no guaranties they are from God. I know we have discussed it before brother about the fake thing of "holy" laughter . And about some of the people promoting such. Like LittleGift i dont need Art Katz or Zac Poonen to tell me some "prophet" is false, it was my desire not to mention names in this thread, but some of the names you mentioned I just found for example Art or brother Zac they put in words what my spirit told me first time i heard Mr Hinn, or the first time i saw people bark like dogs claiming they are filled with the spirit and laughing like they have taken an overdose Lsd. My spirit went of as an alarmclock. Now i read Art Katz and find he puts in word what my spirit felt.

Have you ever considered brother you may be deceived? these men might have fooled you? You are only in deception when you think you have the genuine but in reality, you dont....

I will pray for you brother, God knows all things and can reveal everything to a humble heart seeking him.

God bless you

Brother Christian


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/12/16 2:11Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:
hmmhmm wrote:
you know there is a chance you may be wrong ? your experiences can be be very wonderful, but that is no guaranties they are from God.



Minutes before to see this post, I was reading this:

A skilful liar lies not only in word but in gesture and deed ; he can as easily pass a bad coin as tell an untruth. The Devil is a skilful liar, and we cannot expect him to stop at words in his lying. [b]He will resort to lying signs and feelings and experiences in his attempts to shake us from our faith in God's Word.[/b]


You probably know the illustration of Fact, Faith and Experience walking along the top of a wall. Fact walked steadily on, turning neither to right nor left and never looking behind. Faith followed, and all went well so long as he kept his eyes focused upon Fact; but as soon as he became concerned about Experience and turned to see how he was getting on, he lost his balance and tumbled off the wall, and poor old Experience fell down after him.



All temptation is primarily to look within; to take our eyes off the Lord and to take account of appearances. Faith is always meeting a mountain, a mountain of evidence that seems to contradict God's Word, a mountain of apparent contradiction in the realm of tangible fact- failures in deed, as well as in the realm of feeling and suggestion-and either faith or the mountain has to go. They cannot both stand. But the trouble is that many a time the mountain stays and faith goes. That must not be. [b]If we resort to our senses to discover the truth, we shall find Satan's lies are often enough true to our experience ;[/b] [u]but if we refuse to accept as binding anything that contradicts God's Word[/u] and maintain an attitude of faith in Him alone, we shall find instead that Satan's lies begin to dissolve and that our experience is coming progressively to tally with that Word.


[i]-Taken from The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee[/i]

 2007/12/16 3:22Profile









 Re:

Kire, hmmhmm and LittleGift,
I can't tell you how refreshing it is to come on-line and find such posts.

There is so much "stuff" being taught out there, that if one had any doubts if we're living in "those days", then all of these false doctrines and manifestations would prove it unequivocally.
31 years is not a long time to be saved, but never in all of those years have I seen such an avalanche of "stuff". It is a snow-balling avalanche. And it's forming into one big suffocating mass out there.

Funny words for this early in the morning, but nonetheless true.

Very grateful for you all and the Classics here, once again. The Old Paths seems to be holding as a strong foundation. Praise The Lord!

LORD Thank You and protect all. Amen.

 2007/12/16 7:59
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Duplicate efforts

Quote:
If I took Art Katz teaching to heart I surely would be wary of power, wondering if maybe the devil was manipulating something.
No sir I will look to God and expect his word and presence and testimony to always agree that no devil can duplicate the miracles of God.



[i]And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.[/i]

[i]Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.[/i]

[i]For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.[/i] Exo 7:10-12

[i]For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[/i] Mar 13:22

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[i]Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.[/i] 1Jn 4:1


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/12/16 8:49Profile









 Re:

Benny Hinn and Witchcraft


http://www.pfo.org/bhnecro.htm

Aimee S. Mcpherson and Kathryn Kuhlmans bodies are dead and buried but they have reserved power, at least according to Hinn. He even frequents their graves. This is a Grave Deception.


“Benny Hinn said, "One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee's tomb in California... Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman's tomb. It's close by Aimee's ... I've been there once already and every so often 1 like to go and pay my respects 'cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she's buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can't get in without a key and I'm one of the very few people who can get in. But I'll never forget when 1 saw Aimee's tomb. It's incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb … I felt a terrific anointing when 1 was there. 1 actually, hear this,' I trembled when I visited Aimee's tomb. I was shaking all over. God's power came all over me. ... I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee's body.
Someone asked me how is it you can feel the anointing around a tomb? I have no idea man, but I sure felt it. Your gonna feel the anointing...I’ve heard of people healed when they visited their tomb... ( Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV# 309,)”


God’s warning about witchcraft or the practice of Necromancy.


Saul & The Witch of Endor

Endor was a city of the tribe of Manasseh, located about 9 miles southeast of the Sea of Galilee. Samuel was a faithful prophet of the Lord, and serves as a righteous judge for Israel before the times of the kings.


In the early part of his ministry, Samuel served as a traveling judge of Israel. From his home in Ramah, he made a yearly circuit to the cities of Bethel, Gilgal, and Mizpah. Under Samuel, the judgeship of Israel developed into something more than a military leader called upon for dramatic leadership in times of national crises. He became a judge with a permanent leadership office, an office approaching the stature of a king in other nations. When the people clamored for a king like the surrounding nations (1 Samuel 8:5), Samuel was reluctant to grant their request. At first, Samuel though the people of Israel were disgruntled with him and he took this as a rejection of his long years of godly service on behalf of the people. He also was very aware of the evils that went along with the establishment of a royal house. But the Lord helped Samuel to see the real issue, namely that Israel aspired to be like the other nations of the world, and have a king. In their aspiration for a king, Israel was in essence turning their backs on God. The Lord God remarked to Samuel: "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them." (1 Samuel 8:7)



This serious subject matter of Kingship in Israel, and Israel’s blindness to the Divinely mandated right of God to appoint kings in Israel is part of the reason that Israel has become compromised with worldly whoredom, and missed out on the identity of her true Messiah King.



Israel has always wanted to be like the other nations of the world, and to be accepted by them, and to have a king comparable to other nations. (I Samuel 8:4-5 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.



The person (Saul, whom the people esteemed because of his physical stature) whom Samuel anointed as the first king of Israel turned out to be a poor choice. Saul was handsome, likeable, tall, and an imposing physical specimen. Saul was Israel’s perception of the ideal prototypical king, one like the other nations had. But he had a tragic spiritual flaw that led ultimately to his own downfall. He capitulated to the will of the people and disobeyed God by taking war spoils in a battle rather than wiping out all living things, as God had advised and commanded. (1 Samuel 15:18-26) Saul's false pride and extreme jealousy toward David, who had slain Goliath, also led him into some serious errors of judgment and jealousy. Thus, when God finally rejected Saul as king, God once again used Samuel to announce the prophetic words of Saul’s impending judgment.



(1 Samuel 15:10-11 Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel, saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.)



Later, when Saul felt threatened by the warring Philistines, Saul decided to disguise his appearance, and approach the witch of Endor for consultations with her to act as a medium to Samuel, so he could receive some much needed advice from the deceased Samuel. Saul had previously developed a reputation for disposing the country of witches, because he had been advised of Samuel to not suffer any witches to remain in Israel. Now, without having access to the wisdom of Samuel, Saul needed to disguise himself before the witch of Endor, so as not to alarm her. When the witch conjured up Samuel, the apparition caused her to become affrighted, for then she realized that her client was none other than Saul, a close confidant of Samuel.



I Samuel 28:11-16 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?



A medium (such as the witch of Endor) was a person thought to have the power to communicate with the spirits of the dead. (Isaiah 8:19; 19:3; 29:4)



Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?



Isaiah reveals that spirits and powers of the dark world have the ability to peep into our affairs, and to observe the on goings of things all around us, and therefore to know much about us that we would only expect someone personally close to us to know about. God says that by seeking after wizards and witches, one is demonstrating that they are placing more faith in the false gods of this world than in the one true God. In Luke 20:38, God further reveals that he is a God of the living, and not a god of the dead.

According to the Law of Moses, anyone who professed to be a medium or a channel of communication to the spirit world was to be put to death by stoning, and this was the judgment prescribed by Samuel. A medium was considered a necromancer, or communicator of the dead. The practice of being a necromancer was the craft or practice for extracting information of guidance from a Pagan god. For this reason alone, the spirit of Samuel conjured up by the witch of Endor should be viewed with great skepticism. The Bible explicitly teaches against expecting any legitimate contact with the dead, for its participation can only serve the purposes of Satan.



Deuteronomy 18:9-12 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.



The witch of Endor reveals that she saw gods (plural) ascending out of the earth. There is much debate as to whether or not the gods out of the earth were from Heaven or from Hell, and as to whether or not the apparition that was conjured up by the witch was the real Samuel. The witch described Samuel’s appearance to Saul as being an old man covered in a mantle. A mantle was a type of robe, or coat for the upper portion of the body. There was something about this mantle that convinced Saul that the apparition was indeed Samuel.

It may be that Saul remembered that Samuel’s mantle had become torn in a prior meeting between himself and Samuel. Samuel informed Saul, that like the renting of his mantle, so had God rented the kingdom of Israel from Saul. Perhaps the torn mantle was a sign that deceived Saul into perceiving that the apparition was none other than the real Samuel.



You will notice that in verse 15 of chapter 28 of I Samuel that the apparition appearing as Samuel addresses Saul in this manner; “why has thou disquieted me, to bring me up?, and, why then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is thine enemy?” One can almost hear the harsh anger intoned by these remarks directed towards Saul. It is as if the apparition is immediately and intentionally trying to intimidate Saul. By intoning this strong invective against Saul, the apparition has placed Saul on the defensive, and shown that he has super-knowledge about Saul’s dilemma. This insidious demonic game-mansip was never Samuel’s reaction and attitude towards Saul while Samuel was alive. Samuel was always respectful of Saul and demonstrated immense love for Saul, even after the Lord had withdrawn his favor from Saul. (1 Samuel 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.)



I Samuel 15:26-28 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou.



It is often assumed that the apparition conjured up by the witch of Endor was the real Samuel, allowed by God to emerge on the scene when the witch called him up. Most scholars that follow this line of interpretation feel that the fact that the apparition correctly predicted Saul’s defeat and his son’s deaths verifies that the apparition was from God. But this theory seems to fly directly in the face of the Lord’s own instructions.



Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.



Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.



Also, the scriptures informs us that there is a great gulf fixed between heaven, hell, and the earth that inhibits human passage from one place to the other. The rich man begged the Lord to send Lazarus to forewarn his brothers of the torments of Hell, so that they could avoid that place. But the Lord informs the rich man that passage by Lazarus was impossible because of the gulf that was affixed between them. Furthermore, the Lord informs the rich man that people such as his brothers would not even be persuaded of the truth even if someone appeared unto them though they were returned from the dead. So, it seems highly unlikely that the apparition appearing as Samuel was anything other than a demonic trick.



Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.



How then was the apparition able to correctly predict the defeat of Israel at the hands of the Philistines, the deaths of Saul and his son’s just a mere day after the conjured visit of the apparition by the witch at Endor?

It should be noted that the Lord had already announced his abandonment of Saul because of his utter disobedience in chapter 15, and before Samuel had died, and had announced that his kingdom would be taken away from him. The forces of Hell were aware of the judgment of the Lord upon Saul, and when God abandoned Saul, he was left completely open and vulnerable to the devices of Satan. Moreover, the Lord through Samuel flatly informed Saul that his rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and his stubbornness against the Lord was as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee (Saul) from being king. From that point onward, Satan could have taken Saul and his camp anytime that he wanted. It was simply through the instrument of the Philistine armies that Satan devoured Saul and Israel.


Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/12/16 11:52
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

creschk, I am making a point and not pitting one leader against another. I am FULLY aware of what is true and what is false.
By everyones own admission there is FAULT in ALL leaders.
Now suddenly one camp enjoys the exclusive rights as to who gets the false prophet crown.
I am NOT anti Art katz.
I am not necesssarily pro wof,hinn, or r. h. browne.

I have a bible and a teacher.
I refuse to jump on the false prophet band wagon.
Why would anyone want to demonize a ministry.
Please look closely at YOUR formula for deternining who is demonic and who is of God.
All reference is supposedly put through a FOOLPROOF DETECTOR and out pops a list of demonic false leaders.
Please look at the anti christ and the beast.
This is the last days deception the bible refers to. To make it something else is to indict even the true prophet.
Peter [a prophet] was so messed up paul had to go go rebuke him to his face.
peters sin made ananias aand saphira look like saints.
My objection continues in that this demon labeling [error by emphesis] promotes false conception to the bretheren as to the power and manipulation of the devil.

Thats why i say the thingss i say. It is possible to be so enamored with a leaader that they get a pass on error.
So you see my objections [totally reasonable] envoke great wrath from the "berreans"
Can you just humor me with a speck of "audience" that the "microscope" of the "berreans" should in turn work equally as well in both camps.
The false signs and wonders label connected to the modern day saints , in my opinion , is damageing to "seeking" saints that are babes looking for more of God.
Unchecked I feel this continued lampooning of ministries will ultimately damage even the participants.
In my short time here I have brought forth valid points that i feel have been met with anger and resentment.
Notice pauls exposing of false prophet imediately qualified by his EXAMPLE OF THE TRUE PROPHET .....himself!
This great example should be herolded as a viable litmus test. I never see this point taken. But paul doesnt stop there he goes on to say that Miracles signs and wonders AUTHENTICATED his ministry.
I keep bringing up the father and stone analogy that Jesus taught.
You CANNOT get a demon from the hand of God!!!
It is IMPOSSIBLE!!
John did not come back from patmos wondering if the devil blessed him with a vision from hell.
He knew his redeemer as does mr hinn,steve hill and rodney.
Theese are true men of God . I have spent many,many, possibly hundreds of hours in these camps and I KNOW my redeemer.
My God does not deliver a demon into my hand .
He promised his people this . and i belong to him.
When in florida i passed through horrendous demonic attacks that just almost got me.
But Jesus came along side and showed me what to do.
Now i have a "understanding " with the devil.

I know we win everytime. I want this for the saints.
I lived my whole christian walk with a "win sometimes" walk.
Now I win because HE wins . HE NEVER looses. So now I never loose. The devil goes down everytime.

I can assure you these ministries are wrongly demonized.
Are they off ?....you bet!
But ALL of us walk a little sideways. But we are not demonic.


David

 2007/12/16 12:19Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

both the mantle staying behind and the transferring of the annointing are scripural.
you shouldnt criticize those that are seeking.
some have one ministry some annother. just because some have a different ministry doesnt qualify them for the demon label.


david

 2007/12/16 12:31Profile





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