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 Re:

Thank you for that Jeff.

That's basically been my experience too.

When, only a couple of years ago, I finally let the Lord take away the deep guilt and inferiority that was driving everything I did and said, I "saw" (not with the outward eye), a hand going into a secret drawer. There was a pistol in it that i knew was loaded. The hand took it out and carried it away out of sight.

When you are filled wiht guilt you are constantly shooting yourself in the head!

You also [i]love[/i] to repent, even of things you haven't done! It can become a kind of masochism, as you described...

Praise the Lord for setting us free!!

Love ion Him

Jeannette

Quote:

FireinmyBones1 wrote:
I would say that to stay free from deception one must be careful that they do not become fixated on only one form of deception. Most who frequent this site seem to be passionately opposed to the errors of Joel Osteen and the Rick Warren types, but these are just one of many deceptive teachings out there. An over emphasis on any one truth will always lead to a neglect of another. An over emphasis on "holiness" (which is typically seen not through the lens of NT scripture but rather through the writings and preaching of "holiness" preachers...) is just as dangerous as an over emphasis on grace. The majority of the errors Paul countered were not those in the "greasy grace" genre, (although he certainly did confront this...) or the prosperity types. Rather his biggest "beef" seemed to be with the legalists and those pseudo-watchmen types who took away the brides cloak of imparted and imputed righteousness by constantly beating the self-denial drum. (SOS 5:7-)

Perverted prosperity messages, greasy grace/seeker sensitive types, and watchman wannabe's are all in the same category to me. One is not more dangerous than the other. One leads you into selfish materialism, one leads you into lasciviousness, and one leads you into legalistic bondage, cross mocking, worship of the human will (yes even the calvinist), and ultimately far from the face of Jesus.

It is important to be balanced! So many of us live on the defensive instead of the offensive. Everything we do is in RESPONSE or in REACTION to sometime someone else did. We are always countering the false. This can ultimately lead to the creation of error in the name of correcting error. Most errors are just exaggerated versions of the truth (although this is certainly not always the case). Most error can be corrected by adding something more to the diet instead of subtracting. When we subtract in response or reaction to error, we are always left with a mutilated portion of the gospel.

I was getting really close to error once in my life because I developed an unhealthy addiction to repentance preaching. It was ALL that I listened to. If every message was not a slam in the face, I counted it as being compromised, cupcake Christianity. But why was I so addicted? I would search my heart for every little impure motive, every area of secret sin, you name it, I searched it out. Yet I was living a moral life as much like Jesus as I knew how. I had so separated myself from anything that may have smelled similar to something that looked like it may have smelled like something that tasted like deception, that I was missing about 99.9% of the gospel. I was living off of the "foundation of repentance from dead works..." (Heb 6) which the scriptures encourage us to grow beyond.

I was stuck. Yet in the midst of it I had truly deceived myself into thinking I was right and everyone else wrong. I would not even witness many times out of fear that my witnessing was being done out of impure motives. Sometimes even praying was fearful! Was I praying so that I would be anointed by God so that when I stood in the pulpit to preach men would look at me and say "What a holy man of God!"? AHH! Even my prayers and desire for intimacy with God had impure motives behind them! This constant examination of the motives and "navel gazing" had me crippled and dying. I was desperate to be more like Jesus and for revival. I prayed and fasted and fasted and prayed. Yet my doctrine was horrible. I reveled in concepts like "dying daily", "crucifying the old man" etc... I had no idea that these were total misinterpretations of scripture. Maybe that was why I felt so stuck!

I've come to see that those who are most desperate for genuine revival and most hungry to bear and manifest the character of Christ are also typically those who really don't know the true gospel of the NT but only that of the holiness camp. I have discovered that most of what is taught as "holiness" and the "deeper life" (by the way-since when are elementary truths the "deeper life"?) could not realy be seen through the teachings of Paul and the apostles when taken by themselves. It was only in addition to the writings and teachings of those with a repentance fetish that I could see the scriptures saying those things.

In Song of Solomon 5:7- , the woman tells of how she is desperately searching for the one her soul loves. (as i was) When she encountered watchmen who beat her, bruised her, and took away her robe. It is often those who are most desperately seeking Jesus who fall into the hands of abusive watchmen. The scripture says that the "bruised" her. Bruising is indicative of internal bleeding. It's an interesting note that she DID not have these internal problems until she met up with the "watchmen". In my life I was actually living in much more victory over sin, much greater intimacy with God, much greater efficacy in witnessing and preaching before I encountered the watchmen - the unbalanced holiness message. But the unbalanced words bruised me and actually created within me problems that were not there before. I was just lead to believe it was the "self-life". Then my robe of righteousness was stolen. I could no longer see myself through the blood of Jesus - only the bruised condition the watchmen had left me in.

I write this only to say that I was nearly deceived by a more subtle form of deception. It wasn't gross prosperity or greasy grace - rather it was an over emphasis on the elementary truth of repentance. The less I tinker with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the more I simply find my pleasure in intimacy with God in the garden, the more holy I live!

these are just my thoughts,
God Bless!
Jeff

 2007/12/13 5:56









 Re:



[url=http://www.benisrael.org/writings/online_books/anatomy_of_deception/taod_contents.html]The Anatomy of Deception[/url]


Thank you Brother hmmhmm for leaving this link.

 2007/12/14 7:57
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

It would seem that we should look at miracles as God does and not man.
"And stephen full of faith and power,did great wonders and miracles amoung the people."
I see no reason to reject what God has given his people to walk in.
I think Art must have a paranoinia concerning miracles.
And btw, where are the Lying signs and miracles attached to the apostles?
I cant find it!

David

 2007/12/14 9:22Profile
destinysweet
Member



Joined: 2007/11/19
Posts: 159


 Re:

Seems to me there is an enormous amount of references in the old testament too, concerning God's mighty signs and wonders..why would we want to believe that in a time of such trouble with the need for real power, that God would withdraw all that He can and will do for and through His people miraculously? I am alarmed at the 'guards at the gate ' of this rich freedom. Simply because Satan will use counterfeits to decieve...doesn't make sense to me... and isn't at all what Jesus has to say about it either...(greater things He said) however looking for them in everything,waiting around for them and chasingafter them is one thing..I for one know that when my eyes are fastened securely to my Father's hand to watch Him closely to know what He wants me to do,signs and wonders show up all the time in big ways and small,but they are not there to make me look good..no way! they appear/happen for His glory, and purposed will made manifest...definately not some side show circus event to promote some ministry...I was thinking today that not too many miracles were recorded having been performed by Jesus,within the church/temple buildings...He taught there mostly and it was outside as He went out into the highways and the byways that He did the best stuff...these were drawn to Him from their daily activities. May I be allowed to proclaim that almost all the miracles/healings that I've seen/performed have been a natural outflow of a HolySpirit-filled life tending to the needs of the least of these,my brethren,potential brethren or actual...bringing the good news to those who were perishing and in rescueing the folks from His flock who were nearly destroyed by false brethren...I don't think "church on sunday as usual" folks realize all that God is doing through Jesus'surrendered and obediant friends,He says we are His friends...for one thing ,they don't go run to the nearest fellowship to bring it to everyone's attention.. but rather go on with the work and the next miracle.In fact you lose track there become so many... Not to say they do not ever speak of these things..no just when God wants them to...because even speaking of the mighty works of God releases power!Besides in much of todays church do you realize how envious people can be...how meanspirited? sometimes I think the believers inside the buildings are in abigger mess than those who no longer go there,but love Him deeply. How fun it would be for me to find a group of believers where I am living now..but I 've not been here very long yet..I will keep believing while I go where God sends me and Pray.

I believe that folks get too comfortable with the safety/familiarity of how they've set up the order of their religious lives...perhaps never really encountering the Word of God in their study of Jesus' words first..this flesh they haven't begun to digest before they are taken the direction which seems right because of what they are taught when they come together to worship and study the Bible..This bread of life that is fresh- Jesus - challenges man to do what the 'church' today deems quaint but impossible in today's earthly system...too radical.What most have never understood is that the authority structure isn't plumb and so there is very little authority,thus power. With the fields so white with harvest...Perhaps we should all pray for Him to send out His workers to gather it in. And so we say what would you have me do Father...then just do it.

He's still doing the same things He was then..because He doesn't change...now He likes to do these through us...wow! What a honor..huh?


_________________
G.M. (Destiny) Sweet

 2007/12/14 21:47Profile









 Re:

It seems that folks are commenting on a book that they have not read.

I believe everyone here believes in "signs and wonders", but this is about Jesus' warning that it will be 'through' signs and wonders and false prophets and teachers that many or most will be deceived in these last days.

I've had some encounters lately of folks using two scriptures to say that we can or need to do things that contradict Scripture. The one verse was where John said, that if all that Jesus did were put into books, the world couldn't contain them and also the "greater than these" verse - which only meant - greater in quanity, because He was only ministering for 3 1/2 years, whereas, we have a lifetime.

We don't need threads to convince us all to believe in signs and wonders - but we do need those that speak to the hour that we are living in, with what Jesus said would happen - as in a Massive Increase in False Prophets and Teachers and lying signs and wonders. Over and over again, that warning went out from Him and His Apostle's writings.

All here are acquainted with the Real McCoy in these areas, but the unslaught of the counterfeit is what this and other threads are about and they are Much needed.

What makes SI different, is that they don't have the phony-phenomena-propaganda that most sites have now and we pray it will stay that way. I believe because The Classics were the foundation of this website - the truth of them will not allow anything counterfeit to be built upon that foundation.

I'm grateful for threads like this one and pray they will continue to be a marker for those seeking a safe dwelling place in these last days of spiritual-maham, that's out there. Amen!

 2007/12/14 22:11
destinysweet
Member



Joined: 2007/11/19
Posts: 159


 Re:

I concur wholeheartedly! And I love what Jeff had to say about the counterfeit and the real bill...may we become so immersed in the Truth that is Jesus in all His fullness that we would glorify God with our faith in all that He can and will do for His beloved who are trusting in Him and Him alone to get through such a dark and perilous time...mayhem...exactly! And far worse than it's ever been or ever will be again, that is after His appearing for all to see! Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe!


_________________
G.M. (Destiny) Sweet

 2007/12/14 22:22Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

I think if a person keeps it simple they can avoid a lot of complex extra biblical rabbit trails.
Jesus gave good advice concerning the devil
God good
devil bad.

Earnestly desire the gifts.
To connect the devil to miracles done at the hand of modern day christians is appalling.
As if they were not bretheren but instruments of the devil?
The word over and over attributes these to God,Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
There is lack of miracles, not a runaway devil outdoing the modern apostles.
If I took Art Katz teaching to heart I surely would be wary of power, wondering if maybe the devil was manipulating something.
No sir I will look to God and expect his word and presence and testimony to always agree that no devil can duplicate the miracles of God.
Show me one place where a devil healed anybody or isnt Gods word true when it says if a boy ask for a fish will his father give him a stone?

No sir to emphasise what the devil can falsely do ........I dont want that to my charge.
I would rather be like Elisha. If I have to chase the mantle of God across 3 continents and wait for the prophet to be taken off the earth.......When the man of God recieves his mantle no wimpy demon can stop him.
and the devil cant stop the power of God.
If Jesus is still alive then he still heals,raises the dead,and casts out demons
"for this purpose the son of God was manifested ....to destroy the works of the devil"





David

 2007/12/14 23:57Profile









 Re:

David, I don't think you understand.

Art was a Prophet. He died this year.

Enjoy his messages.

http://www.benisrael.org/writings/artkatzarticles_main.html

 2007/12/15 0:03









 Re: False Prophets - False Teachers


I started another thread on the topic of Seventh Day Adventist but I saw this thread and thought that I need to post it here too.

Some professing Christians are claiming that alot of Seventh Day Adventist are saved and born again. Here is a portion of Ellen White's statements a well known heretic quoted in her own book. These beliefs are seeping into the church and many are fellowshipping with these people professing them to be belivers and brothers in Christ. I wanted to post these comments another brother posted who fortunately stepped in at just the right time, an answer to prayer as I was trying to dissuade these brothers from further fellowship with them and as he was trying to witness to these cult members.

This is a very unfortunate thing that is happening in the body of Christ.

If someone is saved even if they do not believe all of this womans teachings should totally renounce being a part of this cult by not having anything further to do with it.


Romans 16:17
17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


2 Timothy 2:16-18
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Galatians 1:8-10
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

2 Timothy 3:5
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Jude 1:3 3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


2 Thessalonians 3:6
6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.



From Ellen White's own book:

Can we be saved by keeping the Law?

Ellen White said: "The condition of the eternal life is now just what it always has been … perfect obedience to the Law of God" (Steps to Christ, page 65,67)

The Bible says: "Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." - Galatians 3:11 (ESV)

Who bares the sins of the world?

Ellen White said: "Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the penitent will finally be placed." (The Great Controversy,
page 419,422,485,486)

The Bible says: "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. " - 1 Peter 2:24

Does the Blood of Christ cleanse us from sin?

Ellen White says: "The blood of Christ was not to cancel sin. (Patriarchs & Prophets, p.357)

The Bible says: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace," - Ephesians 1:7

"...the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7

Should we pay for our sins?

Ellen White says: "The best you can do is to bring a trespass offering to the alter of the Lord, and he will accept and pardon you."
(Testimonies 5:339)

The Bible says: "Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. " - Hebrews 10:18

Can we be assured of salvation?

Ellen White says: "Those who accept the Saviour should never be taught to say or feel that they are saved." (Christ’s Object Lessons; Two Worshippers, p.155)

The Bible says: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. " - 1 John 5:13



 2007/12/15 0:23









 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
I think if a person keeps it simple they can avoid a lot of complex extra biblical rabbit trails.
Jesus gave good advice concerning the devil
God good
devil bad.

Earnestly desire the gifts.
To connect the devil to miracles done at the hand of modern day christians is appalling.
As if they were not bretheren but instruments of the devil?
The word over and over attributes these to God,Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
There is lack of miracles, not a runaway devil outdoing the modern apostles.
If I took Art Katz teaching to heart I surely would be wary of power, wondering if maybe the devil was manipulating something.
No sir I will look to God and expect his word and presence and testimony to always agree that no devil can duplicate the miracles of God.
Show me one place where a devil healed anybody or isnt Gods word true when it says if a boy ask for a fish will his father give him a stone?

No sir to emphasise what the devil can falsely do ........I dont want that to my charge.
I would rather be like Elisha. If I have to chase the mantle of God across 3 continents and wait for the prophet to be taken off the earth.......When the man of God recieves his mantle no wimpy demon can stop him.
and the devil cant stop the power of God.
If Jesus is still alive then he still heals,raises the dead,and casts out demons
"for this purpose the son of God was manifested ....to destroy the works of the devil"

David

Hi David

I'm bewildered by your view of Art Katz' writings! I haven't read many of his sermons yet, but just beginning to read the link wow'd me. The spiritual power and understanding is tremendous.

Don't you realise that, while there are indeed true prophets in these days, and true miracles, [i]also[/i] there are the false and counterfeit? To discern the false you need the true gift of prophecy and of discernment, which certainly Art Katz had.

Jesus warned of deception and false prophets in the Last Days, even deceiving, if possible, the elect, and of miracle workers doing wonders in His Name, who yet don't belong to Him.

Take care that you be not deceived...

Lu 21:8 [color=990000]And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.[/color]

1Co 6:9 [color=990000]Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind...[/color]

1Co 15:33 [color=990000] Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Ga 6:7 [color=990000]Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.[/color]

Revelation also warns of demonic miracles, do you think that book is obsolete yet, or that it contains "complex extra biblical rabbit trails"?

Of course Revelation [i]was[/i] considered extra-Biblical at one time...

Revelation 16: (my emphasis)
[color=990000]13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, [i][b]working miracles[/b][/i]...[/color]

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/12/15 13:14





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