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Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England


Amen Brother IronMan.

Jon, you mentioned the conscience, and Ironman believes it to be the voice of God, maybe, maybe not, let me ask Jon if he believes that we should never act against our conscience. That is what Todd Friel says and I actually go along with it, but the problem comes when we ask 'What does our conscience sound like?' What if our conscience told us to do something contrary to scripture? Could the Devil impersonate our conscience? Should we not test what our conscience says against the bible? You see our conscience could easily be refered to as 'I feel this is right' and we know we shouldn't go on our feelings.

Can I ask you to do something? re-read the whole of this thread, you hopefully will see that the arguments we are putting against you, which you are calling pragmatism, relativeism and straw men, are just the same as those which you are aiming at us. Could you also answer some of the direct questions and Scriptures that have been posted. You seem to think that because you are right you don't have to use scripture, and when we quote the Word to back up our points you either ignore it or say it's out of context.

It would be interesting to know exactly what verses are 'in context' to the way we live today, especially as most of the OT was directed to the Jews, then we can rip out all those pages which we don't need anymore and just concentrate on the 'good bits'.

As for me, if 'ALL SCRIPTURE' us useful to us, then I try to find out what God is saying to me when I come across a verse, I don't just say 'that's for the jews, I can ignore it'.

Let's have another look at John 10:27

you say it means 'my sheep receive my teaching'.

My bible says; 'hear my voice' KJV
'Recognise my voice' - LB
'Listen to my voice' - NIV, NCV and Jewish NT (trans.David Stern)
Matthew Henry in his commentary says 'they heard and believed His word'

And I haven't looked at any other versions so don't think I've picked out the ones that agree with me.

It seems that you are smashing your opinions into the scriptures when they clearly say 'VOICE' and you read 'TEACHING'

I will start a new thread putting forward my opinion that there are two ways the Devil decieves us, one when we listen to every wind of doctrine and get blown about all ways, and the other where the Devil tricks us into ignoring the voice of God, (not because it disagrees with the bible) and not acting in obedience with Him because we use the excuise; 'I need to go and check taht out when I get the time'

I believe that as long as we are reading our bible daily, and I mean studying it and delving into it, that when the Word of God prompts us we know it's Him because we know the bible, and in that way we are constantly in communion with Him.

One last point for Jon, what's the point of the Holy Spirit then, it seems that in your doctrine the Holy Spirit is either the same as the bible or the bible replaces Him.

What we're trying to do here, Jon, is to help you to see how you are missing out on your relationship with Jesus by not listening to Him when He speaks to you in His still small voice. Of course the bible is the most important guide, but it's not the only way He talks to us.

Try this, Ask God to reveal His will to you, and pick up the bible and read it (I'm sure you do this already) and ask Him to give you a direct yes or no on the matter. Don't ask others, God's perfectly able to lead you into all truth through your bible and the Holy Spirit helping you understand it.



 2007/12/1 5:32Profile

Joined: 2007/12/4
Posts: 1


I believe that both people on the opposing sides on this argument are sorta saying the same thing.

The problem i have with actual "Audible" i-can-hear-you-as-you-can-hear-me, 'music' loud-voice(just trying to make myself clear- lol) is that even with everyone’s testimonies it doesn’t seam to be actually happening.- they got a 'prompting' 'feeling' 'something said to me' 'i felt' etc. which is not audible- it might be clear but not actually audible.

ive been Christian(about 2 years or so now) i have been reborn and changed by God's holy sprit that lives in me- things i used to do i don’t do anymore and my flesh wars with the sprit constantly- so things my flesh would want to do i fight against- like for instance the example about 'apologise to your wife' this is a fruit of being reborn- the holy sprit changes you, makes your conscience tender and you know when you have done something wrong and you will have the attitude to apologise- even if your flesh doesn’t want to- “the war again”.

i constantly get guilt pangs and things when i-for instance drop rubbish mistakenly on the floor and then something tells me to 'pick it up'. now - this is something ive always got- before i was a Christian and get now im a Christian- so was God speaking to me to pick up rubbish before i was a Christian- or was my conscience just not hardened to picking up rubbish?
also i get thoughts telling me to do other things that are not good- now i know the devil cant read my mind- so im not sure how thoughts will come from the devil- although i have herd Todd say something to this effect about the devil firing thoughts about Gods existence to your brain or something.
And also for every testimony about god ‘speaking’ to not do something- you can find one in another religion- or also another one that said don’t do this- and you did and NOTHING happened.

i believe this feeling of knowing something is what some people are calling God speaking to them(so far it matches with the word) and others are calling a more informed conscience being subject to the leading of the holy sprit- im more in the second camp than the first.

When the people in the bible herd Gods voice THEY HERD IT- there was no... “hmmm is this God?” - they KNEW- no waffling no like.... “i have to check this up”- no ‘small leading’- it was GOD and a lot of the time VERY AUDIBLEY. im not saying God cannot speak audibly now if he wanted to- just that he gave his word for the reason that he wouldn’t have to????? he spoke to prophets- and others in a way they couldn’t misunderstand so his word can be canonised and they would have no trouble saying- GOD SAID:""

like the people on the God speaking camp- i have testimonies similar to yours- but i would call it the holy spirit informing my conscience and not letting me do the things i used to, or letting me live in sin, rather than God said apologise.- technically God did say apologise when u done wrong(im sure somewhere in the bible) lol.

i tend to see that people of teh more charismatic side of Christianity tend to put the other more conservative side down- thinking they haven’t attained some sorta 'level' of the sprit- because they don’t believe in things such as God speaking audibly or tongues to name a few, but i think we contend over a small minute part of God, fighting over it when there is an ocean of knowledge of God we don’t know.

Hope you were abel to understand what I said- I tend to ramble in my explanations.

Love in Jesus.

 2007/12/4 9:13Profile

Joined: 2007/9/20
Posts: 2

 Re: Hearing God? not Todd friel

We've just posted Two Amazing Accounts of George Mueller, and Prayer
on our website. Which differs from decissions decissions.

On the flip side I know many people who have been seriously messed up when they thought God spoke to them.

A bit of balance is needed.

 2008/2/6 19:13Profile

Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: Hearing God? not Todd friel

1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

How can anyone even question if God still speaks to us? He may not directly always speak to us, but Holy Spirit lives in us, and TEACHES us and councils us in Gods ways. I think, from the mind of God through Holy Spirit counts as communication.

Blessings Greg


 2008/2/6 20:36Profile

Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659



I don't see how you can come out and throw Ray Comfort in the Charismatic box...because he has been on Joyce Meyer's show doesn't align him with her or her beliefs in anyway. And Calvary Chapel wants nothing to do with Charismania.

As far as Todd Friel goes, it is his show and he is going to speak to his listeners on his convictions......and you have to respect that, even if you don't agree.

But listen y'all if he is telling you to read the Word of God, isn't that going to lead you to all truths along with the Holy Spirit?

good points, brother SmokeyGreg....see you Saturday?

 2008/2/6 23:51Profile

Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia



repentcanada wrote:
I don't see how you can come out and throw Ray Comfort in the Charismatic box...because he has been on Joyce Meyer's show doesn't align him with her or her beliefs in anyway. And Calvary Chapel wants nothing to do with Charismania.

Bro, please don't bundle "charismatic" with "charismania" (as you put it). Calvary Chapel is certainly Charismatic, in the purest sense, considering that the word comes from "charismata", which means "gifts of grace" (ie, spiritual gifts). Charismaticism is the antithesis of Cessationism, which believes the "gifts" ceased when the Cannon was completed.

I'm not sure where Ray leans on this issue, bearing in mind that if we were to listen to his really early stuff, he'd would have endorsed "human need centred evangelism". Few people have dug deep into the teaching of the reformers, without coming out Calvinist and Cessationist, but there are exceptions (yours truly included).

Friel, on the other hand, has very strong Reformed leanings, and considering his Lutheran theological training prior to his conversion, and his recommendation that people, who have completed the WoTM School of Biblical Evangelism, go through all the notes in the John MacArthur Study Bible, in order to solidify their theology, it's pretty obvious where he stands.

At the end of the day it is human nature to find any viewpoint, which is contrary to that which we are persuaded of, as being preposterous. My personal fear, regarding reformed types, is that they seem to continually fill it blank spots in issues that Scripture is either silent or vague about. I am reminded of the blind man's response to the Pharisees' interrogation, "One thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see."

Whether or not this is as bad, or worse than the Charismaniac superstition to that endorses all phenomena, untested I am unsure, but it disturbs me none the less.

Aaron Ireland

 2008/2/7 4:53Profile

Joined: 2005/5/9
Posts: 659

 Re: Hearing God? not Todd friel

Brothers and Sisters,

In an earlier post i referred to "Charismatics" as "Charismania". I ask you to forgive me for that, I know it can be taken in a way in which I did not mean.

For the record I don't hold to denominations at all, for we who have been born again are all "Christians".

God bless,

 2008/2/9 0:01Profile

Joined: 2007/2/14
Posts: 41


Of course Christians can hear the voice of God. God is not dead, but very much alive and ready to minister unto the saints. John 10:4 and 10:27. His sheep know His voice. Prayer is communication with God, it takes two people. If you don't know the voice of God then you need to really start praying that God give you a visitation of His Spirit. He is a revealer of secrets and again ready to minister to the spirit of a man.

Christopher Cox

 2008/2/9 0:34Profile

Joined: 2007/12/18
Posts: 2


I'm just going to point out how from what i can tell most peoples arguments and support for one side or another seem just to be "personal experiences"s, "what i feel is"s and "what i believe"s despite claiming that scripture is sufficient.

One example of it that is heretical is

The great thing about theology is that you can choose one that will fit into what you want to believe. We all do this to a certain degree. Just because he knows his theology more or better then you know yours, doesn't mean that you are wrong (in context of hearing from God). Listen to what the Lord is telling you. If he wishes to mock those that disagree with him, then that is a road that he needs to be careful on, not you.

where did you get that conclusion from. The Bible makes it clear that God is eternal and never changing.(Psalms 119:137-144) I'm quite sure we can all agree on that, at least i hope we can. So we know that he does have a set standard that is completely and consistent. We should be trying to get our theology to match up as close as possible as his standard, through the bible.
And not picking one that suits you or in other words.
"choose one that will fit into what you want to believe."

If i got to choose what i wanted to believe in, nobody will go to hell except Hitler types, rapist/murders, and etc. But i know it doesn't matter what i want and that by God's standard we are all filthy sinners that helplessly deserve damnation.(Romans 3) Thats what makes his gift so great.

I think an interesting thing some people bring up, is why doesn't the Bible clearly teach us how to differentiate between God's voice and which ones are just our own thoughts or even worse the voices of demons. Because we can all agree listening to the wrong voice can/will lead to lots of problems...

 2008/5/12 4:15Profile

 Re: Prophesy and revelation

"Let the prophets prophesy, and the others judge". Evidently, it was not uncommon for the early church to have God speak in their meetings. Paul related about the prophetic word coming forth, "And the secrets of his heart revealed, he will fall down and worship God."One has a revelation...", and "let the prophets prophesy one by one", and,"seek the greater gifts, and especially that you would prophesy."

This is not counting tongues, and the interpretation of them. [mysteries in the Spirit tongues, not Farsi], Must I say , on and on. "I will pour out my Spirit on ALL flesh[every nation, not just the Hebrew...], and your young men and women shall prophesy, and your old men shall dream dreams..Joel..." This is in the latter days...

I also must add, that in general, the reality of these gifts occurring in a Christian meeting, are as rare as hen's teeth, and are more likely than not, faked, or mimicked, for various reasons. Just because testimonies are given verifying them are debunked, does not mean they are not real, for they [b]DO[/b] have a Biblical precedent and no, God does not have laryingitus.

Imagine the Bible without God's voice, or even audible speech, or Angelic visitation! No Bible....and after the New Testament.....How can men begin in the Spirit, and be perfected or guided by the letter? It is preposterous to me. Does this mean I reject men who may believe so?? Of course not, but it does mean that I must reject their doctrine, if I want to be [b] LED[/b] by God the Spirit. "As many as are [b]LED [/b] by the Spirit, these same are the Son's of God".

Church history is filled with the supernatural Voice leading and encouraging and protecting, all the way up to Now. Many, many men of God, on this site, that are highly honored[ I think of General Booth, and Art Katz, and David Wilkerson, and too many to name,] have heard the audible Word of the Lord. Are they all liars, because they testified of a biblical experience in their own walk as they loved God and bore good fruit??

Of course not. The cessationists believe the bible, and I respect them for that, yet they believe that we cannot hear the same God who wrote it, and that all the supernatural giftings in the Church somehow vanished in 95 AD or so is a stretch for me, and I believe has done great harm in teaching the Seeker of God that it is impossible for Him to speak audibly to you, and is probably of the Devil.

It is a safe place for the mind to hide in, denying His power to do this, but it surely doesn't cultivate intimacy with Him. I have heard His voice, too. Maybe in their minds, I am a heretic too, but I'll keep His promises to me , in audible words and visions, tucked in my heart until I see him face to face. Then I won't need them; I'll just chat with him as he fellowships me.......Really.

 2008/5/12 5:16

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