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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Joyce Meyer's $23,000 Toilet:A Symbol Of The Prosperity Gospel

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 Re:

Actually I never said she had a $23,000 toilet.

 2007/11/17 13:39
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi glorytoglory...

I wasn't directing my post to you. It was in response to the initial post of this thread. This has turned into a polite discussion about the modern prosperity message. However, I am concerned that we (collectively) might have "given an ear" to rumors or gossip that aren't based upon truth. This would cause us to be partakers to error or "false witness." I don't agree with the prosperity message, but I don't want to wander into the realm of gossip or slander.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2007/11/17 13:44Profile
mackaymarsh
Member



Joined: 2007/5/21
Posts: 132


 Re: A lot to say ???

Our Brother (Sister), chandras, from India seems to have a lot to say (promote) about the prosperity gospel. There have been 94 posts in less than 2 days since he/she joined.
I'm relatively new here, is this normal? :-(

 2007/11/17 14:29Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Chris,

You were right to question the "toilet" issue. I am for sure not a fan of Joyce Meyers, but the fact remains that the "commode" she paid $23,000 for is NOT a toilet, but a piece of furniture.

http://www.philcooke.com/Joyce_Meyer_toilet


_________________
Cindy

 2007/11/17 14:51Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Rethinking

Hi Chris,

I concur with you but first this might be of some help;

[url=http://grassley.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Blogs.Detail&Blog_id=b7acbccf-a43a-46c9-b188-82c8db4bb155&Year=2007]Sen. Chuck Grassley[/url]

Didn't unpackage the accompanying links, they appear to contain the letters written to the ministries in question.

Source material. What I share with you is something that I have found very bothersome amongst the saints and it is somewhat a manifold problem. One, is that we of all people ought to be relied upon for our honesty and forthrightness, for getting our facts straight before we begin repeating matters. The amount of things, topics and discussions, even the slighting of our own Brethren based on scant evidence is appalling. The more paradoxical of it all is even if we have the 'goods' on someone that there is a compulsion that cannot be controlled to let it all spring forth.

Secondly, that there is such an interest in matters that are of such controversial aspect that it draws so much opinion, belly aching and complaining well before anything has even been truly investigated. Right here there will be a flight and departing unto insinuations and assumptions, but am speaking in generalities.

The truth of the matter is the whole is problematic and not easily divested into neat and tidy bits. For every equal part of poor and wrong extrapolation of scripture is another counter of benevolence and help in some other quarter. I am personally very much opposed to all the ministries named in this investigation and am glad someone is doing just this. It is redundant but even Krispy and myself were former dupes in this whole tangled and messy 'theology' which is a difficult term to even use, it is not a 'prosperity gospel', that is but a merging of conflicting terms, I understand the labeling ...

What am I trying to say here? We need to get our facts straight if we think we are ever going to have any credibility with the world. It doesn't matter if we are talking about false teaching or law mowers, judging our own Brethren or 'global warming'. If we do not fully know what we are talking about we ought to preface our comments as such and well leave off speculative and rumor as what it is in truth; Gossip.

Lest there be any mistake whatsoever, as Zekeo mentioned, there are endless discussions about all of this here. Having come through and out from it, this 'teaching' is of a self-serving nature at it's core and has and will continue to ruin many, that is were it is most grievous, it still breaks the heart profoundly. Have gone from it's extremes to the polar opposite of an ignorant ranting against it all, righteous indignation it may have been but it was still out of control and lacking understanding. The whole thing is so muddled by parsing the truth and also using the truth. It is there, make no mistake about it. Where it is overt it is also subtle and I mean the slight twisting of scripture here and then following on straight forward in the next breath. It is just not that easy to dissimulate when one is bound up in it.

Read through the post on Joel Osteen this morning and it just grieves ... wanted to mention that if anyone is having a hard time getting to prayer, reading through it, I do not know how it could not put anyone but on their face crying out to God for ... revival, for anything, for a change in the atmosphere, for an 'awakening'. I do not despise the man but he ought to step down from a pulpit and go into the self help field and take his psychology there, sans using the bible for his antidote's. His doctrine is far afield as can be from what Christianity is. His hearers will be ultimately ruined if they continue on in this manner.

I really do not profess to have the answer to all of this dilemma other than revival, but I do still believe that whatever the case, we must develop ourselves first in conduct and character far more than our words express, get our facts straight or be silent lest otherwise we be but sounding brass and clanging cymbal.

There is a great deal being held back here, the manipulating of the sheep, the bilking them of their finances, the clever and not so clever appeals and quasi promises wretched from scripture ... It is a horror and a blight on the state of the Church, it is ruinous to the nobility and testimony of Jesus Christ.

I don't know that there is anything new here being said and it is just as difficult to even address it, silence seems far better of late, less meddling, more prayer. The larger part of the common day church is bound up in these things, controversy; "What is your take on _____?". Caught it on a Christian radio call in program yesterday driving home, was quite tempted to call in and ask, "Are you kidding?" Is this worth discussing, is this why the church is at such an alarmingly weak state because it's penchant is for pettiness and ridiculous subject matter? It is so bad I can't even bring myself to repeat it here, it would just turn out more of the same ... meager opinion and quick, rash judgment, railing and strife, contention ... all over something that will be forgotten in two weeks time.

Sigh.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/11/17 14:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:

I think I'll take the word of a missionary over that of JM anyday...



Amen Krispy

Quote:

May God bless JM more and more , thank God.



To paraphrase Carter Conlon: if you can't discern the prosperity gospel, there's something wrong in your heart. There is a divison in your heart. If you can't discern that these [teachers] are not just off track but they are sent by the devil, if you don't realize the gospel that they're preaching is leading the hearers into destruction and that it's a devils gospel, if you dont realize this, it is a very strong indication that there is something wrong with your heart...

[From the sermon: Pigs in the Parking Lot]

Quote:

Your right we have no proof she has this toilet. She has no doubt though used alot of money on alot of "things" she has no right to.



I don't know of anyone but the thread starter that suggested she had such a toilet... but we have undeniable proof that she is a heretic, she stores up treasure on earth and teaches others to do so also.

She is a minister of the devil who teaches that Godliness is gain. She is an enemy of the cross of Christ and except she repent blackest darkness is reserved for her. The apostle said from such a woman withdraw yourself.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/11/17 14:57
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re:

Marble topped commodes aside, one still needs to carefully consider the extravagent spending done by these high-profile ministries.

Just why does one need such expensive digs? Planes and all the other trappings of wealth to minister the Word of God? Jesus did not even own a house when he lived here - granted he owned all the cattle on a thousand hills, but he had no wealth to parade to the world during his 33 years here. His disciples were not people who hoarded wealth...now why do modern ministeries feel they are entitled to it? or is it just another way of earning a living: put people on a guilt trip by quoting scripture at them, provoking them to contribute to them? Maybe they are the western version of beggers wearing the garb of perverted Christianity?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/11/17 14:57Profile









 Re:

Do all rich people go to hell because they are rich?

Quote:
Luke 12:15 Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

This is the the definition of a rich man, one who trusts in his wealth. A poor man may have very little, but he may trust in that little that he has, to the LORD he is like a rich man trusting in his treasures. The poor can have the same covetousness. It's heart thing, and not in the abundance of what he has.
Quote:
Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I know poor people that are proud, stiffnecked and heart hearted, are they heaven bound because they are poor?? Of course not.

When Jesus said, "Blessed be you poor for yours is the Kingdom of God".(luke6:20)

Is Jesus referring to poor penniless people, or those who are poor in spirit? The poor in spirit of course(Matt5:3). All men are the same, sinners in need a of saviour. It doesn't matter who you are, sinner, saint, rich, poor, clean and unclean, we all need Jesus to save us.

It's foolish to say that the rich will go to hell and the poor will go to heaven. It's not your physical disposition that determines whether or not your salvation worthy, it's all has to do with God's grace and to Him whom He will have mercy on. That mercy extends to the rich and also to the poor.

 2007/11/17 17:57









 Re:

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi glorytoglory...

I wasn't directing my post to you. It was in response to the initial post of this thread. This has turned into a polite discussion about the modern prosperity message. However, I am concerned that we (collectively) might have "given an ear" to rumors or gossip that aren't based upon truth. This would cause us to be partakers to error or "false witness." I don't agree with the prosperity message, but I don't want to wander into the realm of gossip or slander.

:-(




Oh your so right.

 2007/11/17 18:27









 Re:

Quote:
It's heart thing, and not in the abundance of what he has.



It is in the abundance that we KEEP. According to Jesus if someone stores up an abundance rather then giving it to the poor it is proof they have a greedy heart.

Quote:

Is Jesus referring to poor penniless people, or those who are poor in spirit?



Luke six is not the sermon on the mount. Jesus and all of scripture talk about how much easier it for the poor to enter into the kingdom. The massive and overwhelming number of counterfit converts in our rich western churches should not fool us. It is still harder for a rich man to enter into the kingdom then for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle. God has not lowered His standard to meet greedy and increased with goods American church-goers half way.

Quote:

That mercy extends to the rich and also to the poor.



Amen, though see above quote.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/11/17 20:46





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