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May God bless JM more and more , thank God.

 2007/11/16 21:20

Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa



KrispyKrittr wrote:
The basic premise of WOF is wrong... they claim promises that God made to Israel. He didnt make promises to us of earthly wealth as Christians. Thats why we live under whats called a NEW COVENANT.

We, as believers in Jesus, can not rifle thru the OT and begin to claim promises made under the Old Covenant.

Really, what it boils down to is the twisted heresy of Replacement Theology. God has not replaced the nation of Israel with the NT Church. Israel is still in His plan, and He is still dealing with Israel... He hasnt written them off. That should be obvious by the very fact that they are in existence today. They are the only nation in the history of the world to cease to exist... and then come back into existence 2,000 years later.

Of course God said this would happen in His Word, so we shouldnt surprised. But it is quite remarkable.

So... basically... WOF is based on a wrong understanding of the difference between God's old covenant and His new covenant.


Seriously it is fascinating to see how the whole thing got started.

As I write it is amazing to see how much of what we believe is built on presupostions of other truths which in themselves can also be challenged.

Just reading through your post I am reminded of the big discussions and input from RobW, RonB on who is Israel? It is fascinating, gotta wonder where we can start from that is common ground and work forward from there to theological positions on tihing, giving, blessing, cursing etc.

Zeke Oosthuis

 2007/11/17 1:15Profile

Joined: 2007/10/1
Posts: 83


May God bless JM more and more

Excerpt from a missionary who works in Cambodia:

'As a result of a Lady Evangelist's (JM) visit in July/Aug all House Groups have been declared illegal. It is also illegal to give out Gospel tracts or booklets on the street, door to door visitation or any sort of open Air meeting/evangelism. Public worship is only allowed in registered buildings.

The US Evangelist claims on her website that 160,000 people heard the gospel and 54,000 trusted the Lord. Counting 3 Province Campaigns held by her teams, my fold tell me that 10,000 max attended the meetings (total of all meetings) but sadly not 1 pastor has seen any new faces attend services. Some rallies were almost a riot as people came forward demanding their gifts of money, clothes and books. One meeting she attempted to hold in the city was shut down by the Authorities and caused panic as people were expecting to get beaten by the police'

The jist of it all is - they came in like a bull in a china shop into a very sensitive situation and in the missionary's own words 'set the work back at least 10 years'. She went home telling her people about tens of thousands saved, great blessing etc.. none of which was true. All info comes from people on the ground in that area - not hearsay. :-(

'Thou shalt not bare false witness'

 2007/11/17 3:53Profile


I think I'll take the word of a missionary over that of JM anyday...

Can you please verify this information for us? I believe you, I just think it wise to have verification of this before people go out repeating this information... because it will get repeated for sure.


 2007/11/17 6:23


May God bless JM more and more , thank God.

As long as she continues to be a heretic God will continue to NOT bless her. All of her worldly riches should not be mistaken as God's blessings... if that were true, then He sure has blessed Larry Flynt and Snoop Dogg.

Until she repents she will not be spiritually blessed, and thats the blessings that come from God.


 2007/11/17 6:27




The very scriptures prosperity preachers use to rob God is against them. In Malachi 3 God says they were robbers and it looks so holy when they preach on Malachi 3 and ask for the tithe but they are tything to themselves.

In verses 16-18 There is a blessing on those who not only do not participate in this theivery but recognize it as such. It also says that they were constantly speaking to one another (fellowshipping) and not participating. Talking about righteousness and holiness. God in turn gave them discernment and in v.18 He says that they will be able to discern between the wicked and the righteous because God is going to give them this discernment.

Malachi 3
1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

7Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

8Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

9Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

10Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

11And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

12And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

13Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?

14Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

15And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.


[color=0000FF]16Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. [/color]

[color=0000FF]17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. [/color]

[color=0000FF]18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.[/color]

[color=660033]God is going to have a special book of rememberance for those who feared the Lord during this time and thought upon His name.The scriptures say that they spoke OFTEN about God to one another during this time of robbery.[/color]

I praise God for how He remembers His people!

 2007/11/17 6:51

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501

 Re: Joyce Meyer's $23,000 Toilet:A Symbol Of The Prosperity Gospel

Hello all...

I am by no means a "fan" or follower of either Joyce Meyer or the "prosperity" message (at least, in the extrabiblical connotation used by the "word of faith" people). In my opinion, the people who teach this are subtly teaching (and even urging) for a Church that covets the things of this world. This is a stark contrast with Abraham -- who wouldn't even build a house because he sought for a "city whose builder and maker was God" (Hebrews 11). I've never been a fan of Joyce Meyer because of this emphasis in her messages and, consequently, I have never once finished listening to a single message she has preached.

That being said, I was wondering about the title of this thread. Does Joyce Meyer have a $23,000 toilet seat -- or was this either an exaggeration or a lie? I tried to follow the link to this "American Chronicle" website, but it is a broken. So I tried to visit the "American Chronicle" homepage in order to look up any "Joyce Meyer" articles. The site didn't work the first few times I clicked on it. The site seems to "up and down" quite often. Finally, after some time, it worked. I finally found the "[url=]article[/url]" with a little extra effort.

Ironically, this article doesn't seem to be a piece of good journalism. A little research reveals that this website actually seems to be nothing more than a large political blog. A [url=]"WhoIs" search of the website[/url] even reveals some odd information about the Canadian website's purpose. The article itself cites no sources for its claims. Even the article doesn't claim that Joyce Meyer wanted a Saddam-lie gold toilet. Rather, it simply states (with harsh, added commentary) that Meyer added an antique, marble topped commode system (that cost $23K) within her ministry's headquarters. While still lavish and arguably quite excessive, this is not the same as a "[i]$23,000 toilet seat[/i]."

A further Google search only reveals rumors about this story. Most of them integrate the story from the Senate investigation (in the article that I cited last week at SermonIndex) with this rumor of the expensive commode, still inaccurately described as a "toilet seat." Ironically, I cannot find a real "source" for the story anywhere! Even the credible journalism websites are merely offering editorials about the excessive behavior of Joyce Meyer and applauding the Senate investigations or her ministry (and other radical prosperity ministries). While her ministry obviously teaches an extreme form of the "prosperity gospel" message, I wonder about the truth behind the original allegation.

I am worried that, in our zeal for the truth to be revealed about Joyce Meyers' excessive material based ministry, we may have been found guilty of either "bearing false witness" against her or giving ear to those who bear false witness against her. We need to be very careful that we do not become a part of a smear campaign. Thankfully, this thread seems to have gone into the opposite direction, with a civil discussion about the modern prosperity teaching. I just wonder about whether the discussion was based upon a statement that might not even be true.

I'm perplexed as to the reason that "chandras" brought up this article, only to seemingly defend a position for the prosperity message. Then again, I am perplexed by the overwhelming number and manner of the threads that he has started in the two days since he registered at SermonIndex. Make no mistake: I'm not suggesting any alterior motive from our brother (or sister) at all, but I just don't understand the motivation or rationale behind this thread. I suppose that we can view it as simply another thread where we can discusses the prosperity message. It would be helpful, however, if we could at least find some sort of source for the truth behind the original allegation about Mrs. Meyer.



 2007/11/17 12:46Profile


Here's one article from "The Times Herald":

"Grassley also is targeting Joyce and David Meyer of Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Mo. Seems their purchase of a $23,000 commode with a marble top has caught the senator's attention."

OK it's A $23,000 commode with a marble top.

 2007/11/17 13:06

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


Hi glorytoglory...

I read that article in my search for a source to the allegation. However, this is an EDITORIAL and not a piece of investigative journalism. Like the blog (almost) cited in the original post, this editorial does not include a source for the allegation. It is simply the opinion piece of a guy named Jim Ketchum from a small newspaper in Port Huron, Michigan. I fear that he is merely repeating the allegation as he has heard it or found it on the internet.



 2007/11/17 13:13Profile


Your right we have no proof she has this toilet. She has no doubt though used alot of money on alot of "things" she has no right to.

 2007/11/17 13:30

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