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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was God tempted to worship Satan?

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I tremble over these words that you shared:

Quote:
Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced. I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.

So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.

Yes that is correct, I do not believe Jesus was Creator God come in the flesh.





Again, as I mentioned in an earlier post, this is the trouble we will land ourselves in when we substitute a glorified version of repentance for genuine regeneration. There has been enough proof laid out for the Trinity and deity of Christ to suffice an early Church counsel meeting in these couple of threads and yet in the space of two or weeks a man would cast off their belief in the divinity of Christ? Something is seriously amiss here. These are subjects that men pondered for long periods of time- even years before coming to any real conclusions. Two weeks? Two weeks?

(Ephesians 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


If Christ be a mortal man then we are all yet in our sins.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/3 21:42Profile
wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: was God tempted to worship Satan?

BeYeDoers---------quote: "Wildbranch, I think you need to do a little more studying of the manuscripts and "scholars". If this verse was a "Roman Church editorial", why is it not in the vulgate".

The Byzantine manuscripts are also Roman in origin, coming from the Byzantine Empire which Constantine established when he moved the capital of the Roman Empire (Rome), to Constantinople (Istanbul in Turkey, today). The rulers in Constantinope themselves continued the use of the term "Roman," and their subjects were referred to as Rhomaioi, or Romans.

That is why I include them in my posting.



 2007/11/3 22:04Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: was God tempted to worship Satan?

HeReigns---------quote: "What gets me with these Italian guys suddenly calling God YHWH and Yeshua, is if they knew anything about Judaism, they would know that Messiah had to be God ....The "Jews" knew Messiah would be GOD.

"Italian guys"? It would be great if "Italian guys" would use the proper scriptural names for God and for the Messiah, but sadly most do not, and in fact tend to recoil at the usage.

If the "Italian guys" knew anything about Judaism they would definitely know that Messiah was not YHWH, and was never expected to be YHWH in the flesh, a man who could be tempted to worship Satan and die. (Even the "B.C" crowd).

 2007/11/3 22:07Profile









 Re:

Hi Sharon. One of the links you gave on that other thread had an author with an Italian last name. Thought that was sort of funny. My family is part Italian and part Irish and part Jewish.

Anyways. Like I said earlier - this isn't funny.

Now, I asked Nile back on the other thread, Who is 'this' ---- Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


So, Nile comes back, thankfully, and says "That's Jesus."

So I was happy to hear that.

Now I must ask - What is our Blessed Hope ?

 2007/11/3 22:14
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.



I'm sorry, but there is not enough time in two weeks or even two months to even do justice to the issues involved- much less come to any real conclusions. I surely hope your friends did not fall into the same apostacy? Let's set out a few more passages to compare in case they were missed:

(Micah 5:2) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; [u]whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting[/u].

(Habakkuk 1:12) Art [u]thou[/u] not from everlasting, O [u]LORD[/u] my [u]God[/u], mine Holy One? we shall not die. O [u]LORD[/u], thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O [u]mighty God[/u], thou hast established them for correction.

Micah 5:2 is fulfilled in Matthew 2:5,6.

(Zechariah 12:8-11) In that day shall the [u]LORD[/u] defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that [u]I[/u] will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And [u]I[/u] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: [i]and they shall look upon [u]me[/u] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for [u]him[/u], as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for [u]him[/u], as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

(John 19:37) And again another scripture saith, [u]They shall look on him whom they pierced[/u].


Zech. 12:1 declares the speaker to be the LORD (Jehovah) that it is said they shall look upon [u]ME[/u] whom they have pierced.
:

(Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, [u]The mighty God[/u], The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"Mighty God" is found in many places in the Old Testament referring to God Almighty (Deut 10:17, Neh 9:32, Isaiah 10:21, Jer. 32:18)

Psa 50:1 [u]The mighty God[/u], even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto [u]the mighty God[/u].

Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: [u]the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,[/u]









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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/3 22:26Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
"Italian guys"? It would be great if "Italian guys" would use the proper scriptural names for God and for the Messiah, but sadly most do not, and in fact tend to recoil at the usage.



Do you know of a single Greek text that uses Yeshua to describe Jesus?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/3 22:28Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If the "Italian guys" knew anything about Judaism they would definitely know that Messiah was not YHWH, and was never expected to be YHWH in the flesh, a man who could be tempted to worship Satan and die. (Even the "B.C" crowd).



The Jews in the first century had their minds in many places other than the workings of their True Messiah. If they had known what they were supposed to be looking for they would not have rejected Him. That is why Bar Kochba fit their mold so well. They rejected Christ as He refused to overthrow Rome and reestablish Israel. That was all they really cared about. They were exalted in the pride of their own righteousness and felt no need- only insult at the notion that one would die for them. Call your religion what you will, but it is definitely not Christianity.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/3 22:33Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
That is why I include them in my posting.



Yet you would have us believe that the majority of Byzantine manuscript evidence negates the passage.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/11/3 22:44Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced. I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.

So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.

Yes that is correct, I do not believe Jesus was Creator God come in the flesh.

I am sure this desision was bathed in prayer through the whole two weeks of "study". You must surely know that seeking for the truth in prayer of all that you read is the only way to come to a conclusion that bears the weight on ones eternity.

So, to say that We must rely on what is revealed, we must first know the Author of what is being read by prayer, not just by text only.
Most people get their revelation purely on text without knowing who HE is in prayer first.
One must first know who He is in prayer in order to know who He is in the Text.

I will liken prayer to being with Jusue in this next verse:
[b]Act 4:13[/b] [color=990000]Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ordinary men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.[/color]

Why do you think that unlearned and ordinary men such as fishermen would understand the Scriptures better than Caiaphas, John, Alexander, and as many as were of the high priestly family?(Acts 4:6)
Why do you think that a common man as Stephen could come against the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians and they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke(Act 6:9-10).

All this is because of Jesus. When we pray, we will get a fuller understanding of what the Author is saying. This "prayer-induced-understanding"(as one called it) does not go against Scripture, but it brings it to life.

Do you divorce the Word of God from prayer? Do you not know that the Word of God and prayer go hand in hand? How do you think God answers your thoughts in prayer accept by His word.

[b]2Corinth 3:13-16[/b] color=990000]And not as "Moses, who put a veil over his face," for the sons of Israel not to gaze at the end of the thing being done away.
[b]:14[/b] But their thoughts were hardened, for until the present time the same veil remains on the reading of the Old Covenant, not being unveiled, that it is being done away in Christ.
[b]:15[/b] But until today, when Moses is being read, a veil lies on their heart.
[b]:16[/b] But whenever the heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.[/color]

Why do you think that a Pharisee like Saul/Paul only really understood the Scriptures utill he was saved?
Even Scripture itself teaches that one should turn to the Lord(Jesus) when reading His Word. I am not saying that Christians have the veil over their hearts, but in a sense, their heart will not have the same clarity in the Word if one is not reading prayerfully.

How many today read the Scriptures only to gather ammo for their theology and not to learn of HIM?
If they are not reading for the purpose of gathering ammo, then they are only being careful to stay within the concepts of their theology.
Therefore, this "prayer-induced-understanding" is a concept that all should exersise. I am not saying that I know all, but I am saying that one should seek the Author of what they are reading before making a theology or a doctrine. Furthermore, one must not read the bible only for the reason of information, but for the sole purpose of knowing Him better. And one must not read the bible without prayer, asking for His wisdom.

Last of all, I would ask you and others falling into this harassy, to actualy ask God the real identity of JESUS, or is it jesus.

 2007/11/3 23:03Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
RobertW wrote:
...Let's set out a few more passages to compare in case they were missed:

(Micah 5:2) But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; [u]whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting[/u].

(Habakkuk 1:12) Art [u]thou[/u] not from everlasting, O [u]LORD[/u] my [u]God[/u], mine Holy One? we shall not die. O [u]LORD[/u], thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O [u]mighty God[/u], thou hast established them for correction.

Micah 5:2 is fulfilled in Matthew 2:5,6.

(Zechariah 12:8-11) In that day shall the [u]LORD[/u] defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that [u]I[/u] will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And [u]I[/u] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: [i]and they shall look upon [u]me[/u] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for [u]him[/u], as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for [u]him[/u], as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

(John 19:37) And again another scripture saith, [u]They shall look on him whom they pierced[/u].


Zech. 12:1 declares the speaker to be the LORD (Jehovah) that it is said they shall look upon [u]ME[/u] whom they have pierced.
:

(Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, [u]The mighty God[/u], The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

"Mighty God" is found in many places in the Old Testament referring to God Almighty (Deut 10:17, Neh 9:32, Isaiah 10:21, Jer. 32:18)

Psa 50:1 [u]The mighty God[/u], even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto [u]the mighty God[/u].

Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: [u]the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,[/u]

Verey good, don't forget:
[b]Hebrews 7:1-4[/b] [color=990000]For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
[b]:2[/b] To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
[b]:3[/b] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abides a priest continually.
[b]:4[/b] Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.[/color]
[b]Hebrews 6:20[/b] [color=990000]Where the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.[/color]

 2007/11/3 23:26Profile





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