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 Re: Holy Spirit


Hi Jeff

Quote:
To Katy-did
Sis, you always refer to the law given to Moses on Mount Sinai..

You might have to read a whole screen page, as Katy wrote screeds yesterday and very much did not focus on the Mosaic Covenant, explaining the centrality of Jesus Christ in our faith, and that He is one of the Persons of the trinity, the Godhead.

One of the things which has been coming through to me from this discussion, is that the Word was revealed in solid ways, and the Holy Spirit spoke through holy men of old (2 Pet 1:21).

For me, in that context, 'holy' has something to do with being set apart unto God, as the vessels in the temple were serparated only for their purpose. It is not directly to do with a permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we may have since Pentecost (possible because of a new heart and spirit).

So, the Rock that followed them which gushed out water, is revealed again in Jesus Christ when He cried out as John records:

John 7
37 On the last day, that great [i]day[/i] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him [u]would[/u] receive; [u]for the Holy Spirit was not yet [i]given,[/i] because Jesus was not yet glorified[/u].


Remember also, that 'angel' means messenger, and in Revelation, 'the angel of the church' could be an elder to whom God had spoken\was speaking.

The distinction in Hebrews, is to clarify that the 'Angel' (capital A in English) of the Old Testament, who some believe is the pre-incarnate Christ, if it was Him, was not 'a flame of fire' when He was revealed as the Word made Flesh.

The writer of Hebrews is seeking to establish Christ as God's Son by whom He has spoken in these last days. Yes He was\is the Prophet by whom we also speak His word today through gifts of the Holy Spirit, but He was also an Apostle ('sent one' or 'messenger') and our High Priest after a different order then Levi.

The fact is, God is always moving us over onto His ground and reasoning. The very fact that Jesus' human descent is established through His mother, not His true Father, is another example of it.

I find a great deal of confusion in referring to Christ in the Old Testament, because He was very specifically sent at the end of that era. He was a Man, about whom there had been so much prophesy, as RobertW pointed out in another thread recently, it was disingenuous of the Pharisees to pretend they didn't know He was the Messiah.

It is only as we look back, we can refer to 'Christ' in the Old Testament, but really it wasn't 'the Messiah' the man. It was the pre-incarnate Word. This makes far more sense of all Old Testament reading, knowing that Moses had said 'the word is nigh thee', and Paul over a thousand years later adds 'even in thy mouth'.

I do believe there is a subtle difference between the way Noah, Abram, Moses, Joshua and Samuel had to internalise God's word to them on behalf of mankind, and what a simple prophet who was not leading the whole of mankind (if you like, politically under God) was given to communicate from Him to the people, while they were under another kind of rule (such as a king, or captivity). God has always provided His word, whether directly to the man in charge, or, through a prophet to the man in charge.

What happened over a number of days, as Abraham journeyed with Isaac to Mount Moriah, and so nearly killed him, but at the last minute was prevented by God 'providing Himself a sacrifice', is all the more poingant for knowing that the temple was built on Mount Moriah, long after the practice of slaughering sheep on behalf of the nation had been established. This picture language which we see in history, was a more than a week out of their lives in real time, and they weren't putting on a play.

Nevertheless, that was only a shadow of God becoming a lamb led to the slaughter, when Jesus was crucified. He lived that out in real time also. We cannot escape the real-time element of God's revelation to mankind. Now, we are living in the 'now is the day of salvation' and we must live as the 'saved by faith', and internalise the life of Jesus Christ as honestly as we can, becoming that pronouncement of [u]the[/u] new and [u]living way[/u] to our generations.


I know I've rambled, but it's my best attempt at communicating those thoughts.

 2007/11/12 7:13









 Re:

Quote:
know I've rambled, but it's my best attempt at communicating those thoughts.



Dorcas, and is excellent.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-D

 2007/11/12 9:19









 Re:

Jeff,
I just found something you may enjoy reading. What a find, and is sponsored by Sermon Index.

A.W. Pink on the Everlasting Covenant.

No scripture is of private interpretation, and if truth is truth, this truth is made known to His Saints.

Hope you find the answewrs you are looking for.

http://www.praize.com/classics/article.php?id=551

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/11/12 9:32
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sister Katy wrote:

Quote:
I believe I did say the "Everlasting Covenant" was first revealed in Genesis 3:15 and will be completely fulfilled at the end of the age when Jesus takes the Throne of David, reigns and rules, until he has put all things under Him, ( 1st Corinthians 15)also states as well.



Well said, this is the first covenant isn't it? You mentioned that this covenant "will be completely fulfilled at the end."

When did it begin, when were the effects of this covenant experienced by man?


Quote:
I believe I said Abraham, or the covenant made to Abraham is the root in Romans 11, but deeper than this Jesus Christ is the root of the Covenant with Abraham. In Isaac will thy seed be called, not seeds as in many but seed as **ONE**, and that seed is Christ.



Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Please notice that the wild olive was grafted in among them, that is, the "holy branches." Please notice that there were other branches broken off which made room for the wild olive branch.

Each "holy branch" represents a generation that has been sustained by

For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

The word of God is without question. If the branches are holy it is because they received the nourishment from that which is holy.

What do you think about all the branches that represent the remnant thoughout the generations?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff



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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/13 0:46Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sister Lyn wrote:

Quote:
John 7
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.




Phil. 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Here we see that Jesus "being in the form of God" "made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant."

Our dispensational theology bent, often neglects the first part of Paul's explaination of Jesus...

If He was as Paul says, "being in the form of God" prior to His taking on a fleshly body, what did He do in the 4000 years that preceded this moment in earthly history?

Jesus also prayed to the Father looking back to the time before the incarnation....

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.


Jesus also said this...


Matt. 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

How often I wanted to gather your children speaks to more than one generation....many prophets were killed in many different generations.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/13 1:37Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sister Lyn wrote:

Quote:
The writer of Hebrews is seeking to establish Christ as God's Son by whom He has spoken in these last days. Yes He was\is the Prophet by whom we also speak His word today through gifts of the Holy Spirit, but He was also an Apostle ('sent one' or 'messenger') and our High Priest after a different order then Levi.



God sent His Son to speak to a generation that lived 2000 years ago. And like you said, now the Holy Spirit speaks to us. Prior to Christ coming as man, how did God speak to men?

Who else in Scripture is able to perform the priestly duties according to the order of Melchizedek?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/13 1:46Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Sister Lyn wrote:

Quote:
Nevertheless, that was only a shadow of God becoming a lamb led to the slaughter, when Jesus was crucified. He lived that out in real time also. We cannot escape the real-time element of God's revelation to mankind. Now, we are living in the 'now is the day of salvation' and we must live as the 'saved by faith', and internalise the life of Jesus Christ as honestly as we can, becoming that pronouncement of the new and living way to our generations.


I know I've rambled, but it's my best attempt at communicating those thoughts.



We often speak about shadows in the OT. God's word often relates to us in a way in which we might observe precepts based on our physical senses. We know that if there exists a shadow, there must be something that creates that shadow.

Likewise if the "shadow" exists in the OT, one might think that there is something that "exists" that creates that shadow.

We also know that prophesy often manifests itself in multiply generations. What we see now is only a "shadow" that future generations will one day see; existed in our generation. They will say in the midst of the 1000 year reign of Christ that we only saw in part, dimly....

Then again, there is the final episode....where we will no longer suffer from shadows but we will see Him as He truly is. Jerusalem will be forever more...with the Father as the light and the Son as the lamp....

Rambling is a good thing....

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/13 2:02Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

Sister Katy refered to Pink's article....in it Pink writes



Quote:
Unto Abraham God gave a remarkable pledge of the fulfillment of His covenant promises in the striking victory which He granted him over the federated forces of Chedorlaomer. This was more than a hint of the victory of Christ and His seed over the world: carefully compare Isaiah 41:2,3,10,15. Genesis 14:19, 20 supplies proof of what we have just said, for upon returning from his memorable victory, Abraham was met by Melchizedek (type of Christ) and was blessed by him. A further revelation of the contents of the covenant of grace was granted unto Abraham in Genesis 15, where in the vision of the smoking furnace which passed through the midst of the sacrifice, an adumbration was made of the sufferings of Christ. In the miraculous birth of Isaac, intimation was given of the supernatural birth of Christ, the promised Seed. In the deliverance of Isaac from the altar, representation was made of the resurrection of Christ (Heb 11:19).



Pink refers to Melchizedec as "a type of Christ." If Melchizedec was not the preincarnate Christ, If one believes that Melchizedec was only a man, then one must conclude that Melchizedec was conformed into the image of His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is the only way for man to resemble the Seed.

I believe that the Priestly order of Melchizedek could only be performed by the Holy One in Scriptures.



Quote:
Thus we may see how fully the covenant of grace was revealed and confirmed unto Abraham the father of all them that believe, by which he and his descendants obtained a clearer sight and understanding of the great Redeemer and the things which were to be accomplished by Him. “And therefore did Christ take notice of this when He said, Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and was glad” (John 8:56). These last words clearly intimate that Abraham had a definite spiritual apprehension of those things. Under the Sinaitic covenant a yet fuller revelation was made by God to His people of the contents of the everlasting covenant: the tabernacle, and all its holy vessels; the high priest, his vestments, and service; and the whole system of sacrifices and ablutions, setting before them its blessed realities in typical forms, they being patterns of heavenly things.



I believe Pink has missed the point taught in Scripture...concerning the covenant made to Abraham and to each generation that followed...we find this in the book of Ezekiel.

Ezek. 20:5 “Say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God.’

Here we are told that God made an oath to a generation who were "descendants of the house of Jacob" ..."in the land of Egypt."

The Lord says to this generation, "I am the Lord your God."

Then the Lord spoke this to that generation....

6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, “flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands.

Then the Lord spoke this to that generation....

7 Then I said to them, “Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’

This is taking place in the nation of Egypt, where Jacob had moved to some 400 years before...God exhorts them to follow Him and not the idols of Egypt....

(Genesis 15:

13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” )

Now we find in the sequence of events....after God has revealed Himself to this generation....and commanded them to turn towards Him...


8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, “I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’

In this section of Scripture we find that God "was against them in the midst of the land of Egypt."

Then we hear again in the sequence of events that unfold...

9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

So now God relents for His name's sake, and for what purpose? So that HIS name "should not be profaned before the Gentiles.

Now we hear again in the sequence of events...

Ezek. 20:10 “Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, “which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, “which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

In this section of Scripture we find that God now after this generation's first rebellion, gives them the Law given to Moses on Mount Sinai...

Now we know that this covenant purpose was to teach this generation and all others what God considers sin. The effect of this covenant is condemnation.

11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, “which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’


And yet again after more rebellion we find this same effect...

Ezek. 20:25 “Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; 26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the LORD.” ’

If the Lord gives one over to the effects of the Law given on Mount Sinai, there is no hope of salvation...

What is most important to understand in all of this is that when God speaks His promise to a man to be God to him, what does this mean for the man...Abraham is given to us as the Lord's testimony of the power of the promise.

Scripture builds itself in a straight line, it is man's doctrines which chop it up...

When Pink says that the covenant given on Mount Sinai brought more clarity to what existed before, I say it is the opposite. Because of unbelief that generation did not enter His rest. God was willing as we see in the above Scripture to give them much more that what they wanted....

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/13 2:26Profile
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 Re:

Sister Katy...

Have you searched the Scriptures of how the prophesy given to King Ahaz by God came true during his life?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/13 3:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Pink refers to Melchizedec as "a type of Christ." If Melchizedec was not the preincarnate Christ, If one believes that Melchizedec was only a man, then one must conclude that Melchizedec was conformed into the image of His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is the only way for man to resemble the Seed.






Melchizedek was not the same person as Jesus. This comes from a misunderstanding of Hebrews 7.

Melchizedek is first mentioned in Genesis 14. Abram (later called Abraham), returning from the rescue of his nephew Lot, encountered this ancient dignitary who was king of Salem **early Jerusalem. Psa. 76:2**.

The writer of Hebrews uses this incident (together with a prophecy from Psalm 110), to demonstrate the superiority of the priesthood of Christ to that of the Levitical system (Heb. 7:4-10). Beyond that, there were some similarities between Melchizedek and Christ, so that it may be said that the former was a *type* (a picture or symbolic preview) of Jesus. That does not mean, that they were the same person.


Christ was said to be a priest *after [kata] the order [taxis] of* Melchizedek (Heb. 5:6,10; 6:20; 7:11). *kata*, means *in accordance with*.

Just as Melchizedek was both a king and priest simultaneously, so Christ is as well (Zech. 6:12-13; Heb. 1:3).

Melchizedek was “without father, without mother” (Heb. 7:3a). The meaning is this: his divine role was not handed down from his parents. So, neither was Jesus’ priesthood determined by a physical lineage, as in the case of the Aaronic priests Ex. 28:1; Num. 3:10. The Priesthood was from the Line of Levi, The Aaron Priesthood was not by oath but was passed down within that tribe(ONLY). Also there was a change in the Priesthood, not after the line of Levites, but after the line of Judah, of which NO mention of Priesthood was ever mentioned. This is alll explained in those verses. Including th fact that they did not take an OATH. Yet, our Lord, from the foundation of the World, entered inot an Everlasting Covenant, was by an OATH, also clearly stated in Hebrews.

Jeff, this Priesthood came into affect After Jesus Christ Died upon the Cross, and HIS Shed Blood sealed that OATH. Where do you see such with Melchizedek? And if you say he did, what was the need or purpose of Jesus Christ???

Do you understand the purpose of those sacrifices done by the priests and the sprinkling of BLOOD? Re-Read Hebrews 10 to give you a deeper insight.

Jeff, this is what is so important, Jesus, took on the seed of Abraham, for this reason, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Through the line of JUDAH,(the seed of David)..to Mary came our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Melchizedek did not. If this were so, His name would be called Melchizedek.

Why was it necessary to set up a Levitical Priesthood if Melchizedek were in fact Jesus Christ Eternal to begin with. Things would have gone on exactly that way from the beginning.

Everything in the Tabernacle, the Mercy Seat, the Candle Sticks etc,etc, etc, were also a type of Christ and picture of Jesus Christ.


That Melchizedek was not the same person as Jesus is evident in that he is said to be “like unto” the Son of God *Heb. 7:3*.

A distinction between Christ and Melchizedek is seen in Psalm 110, where the Lord addresses David’s *Lord* Jesus in the second person, while the reference to Melchizedek is in the third person, verse 4.

***See Matthew 22:42-44 for Jesus reference of this Psalm to himself.

There are many *Types of Christ* in the OT. Joseph, Joshua, Moses, for starters.

Maybe another thread for that. The main theme here is in *THIS* Type of Christ as Priesthood.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did




 2007/11/13 9:22





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