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iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Earlier on when brother Everett mentioned that he was glad to see another Apostolic Brother on the forum I needed to check something.

For those unfamiliar with the term 'Apostolic' as used by these brothers, it doesn't refer to the Apostles in the NT or the Apostolic Succession claimed by Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists.

It refers in one sense to a Pentecostal [i]Denomination[/i] that traces its roots back to the Welsh Revival of 1904. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Church]There is a good article on wikipedia about the Apostolic Church[/url].

Based on the conversation so far I figured BlazedbyGod as a member of a Apostolic Denominational fellowship, and a search for his nickname on Google will show that he has fellowshipped with an Apostolic Church.

The most controversial teachings of the Apostolic Denomination are their stance on Baptism and Tongues. They claim that a person isn't saved if they haven't been Baptized by Immersion and if they haven't manifested the Holy Spirit through tongues.

Now, based on what I gather, Everett on the other hand is part of an entirely different "movement" that refers to themselves as Apostolic. He is part of the Oneness Apostolic [i]movement[/i] of Pentecostals that trace their roots back to the Azusa Street Revival of 1906.

The most controversial teachings by the Oneness Pentecostals is their stance on the trinity, ie. there isn't one. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostal]Wikipedia article on Oneness Pentecostalism here[/url]. There is also a good wikipedia entrance about the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_vs_Trinity]difference between the trinity and oneness doctrines here[/url].

The only thing I should interject is that both of these groups who call themselves Apostolic Brethren teach doctrine which is outside of orthodoxy within most mainline denominations, as well as most pentecostal churches.

And in retrospect, BlazedbyGod could be part of the latter group when considering his emphasis on 'Jesus' name' which is usually associated with Oneness Pentecostals.

It should also be mentioned that Even Roberts, the revivalist at the forefront of the Welsh Revival preached the trinity in the orthodox sense, and did not preach at any length about tongues or particular baptismal preferences. So despite the claim of a connection with the Welsh Revival, the modern Apostolic Denomination have strayed widely from their forefathers.

Also, while both groups have developed out of Revivals in the early 1900's and share many similarities in their doctrines on manifestations of the Holy Spirit, and both claim the title Apostolic, they are in fact entirely different groups within Pentecostalism. One being a Denomination within Pentecostalism and the other being a doctrinal movement within Pentecostalism.

I guess it could be possible to be part of the Apostolic denomination and also part of the Oneness movement... which may be the case for Blazed, I guess we'll have to see how he responds.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/10/21 21:53Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Who baptized us into Christ, Christ in us?

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Who baptized us into One Body?

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Who sent the Holy Spirit who is baptized into us forever? Who is in us forever by the prayer of Jesus Christ?

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

"dwelleth": Strongs says; Strong's Greek Dictionary
3306. meno
Search for G3306 in KJVSL
menw meno men'-o
a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):--abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

"Abide": Same word. menw meno men'-o

"with": Strong's Greek Dictionary
3844. para
Search for G3844 in KJVSL
para para par-ah'
a primary preposition; properly, near; i.e. (with genitive case) from beside (literally or figuratively), (with dative case) at (or in) the vicinity of (objectively or subjectively), (with accusative case) to the proximity with (local (especially beyond or opposed to) or causal (on account of)

"In" en: a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest.

See the difference of "with" from "in".

there is a difference in the baptism of John and the old testament and the baptism of Christ, God and the Holy Spirit. All in the new testament is In, en:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1722. en
Search for G1722 in KJVSL
en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest.

Baptized into Who By Who? The Father The Son and The Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Christ liveth "IN" me: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/10/22 1:58Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

You were way too confident in that assertion Brother. I was not referring to anything except the Apostolic Doctrine in which the early apostles taught and I call those who hold to the Apostolic Doctrine "Apostolic". Those who baptize in the titles Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are actually making themselves a part of the Roman Catholic Church. That is what they did back then. Anyone that wasn't baptized in the titles Father, Son and The Holy Spirit were killed and those that submitted became a part of the Roman Catholic Church which dominated the world at that time with the sword and deception. The Romans had their own trinity, so did the Egyptians, so did the Babylonians and so does Wicca. The catholics made this picture that had God with three faces and below it a triangle showing how the son is not the father, the father is not the holy spirit but they are all God and that picture was strikingly similar to the picture of the Hindu goddess that has many arms and three faces. The Trinity doctrine is from pagan beliefs and the intellectual ideas of wise men. I am Apostolic as to my beliefs. Not all Pentecostals believe in no woman pastors. Apostolic predominately doesn't allow woman pastors or ordain homosexual leaders. Assemblies of God allows woman pastors. The Apostolic Doctrine doesn't. I am pentecostal as to my belief in the holy spirit baptism and the speaking in tongues that follows. I am holiness as to my belief in without holiness no one will see the Lord. I am baptist as to my belief in immersion in water and not sprinkling and pouring. And so and so forth. You get my point. So pretty much you can call me a simple Bible Believing Christian. If I were to call myself something that relates to doctrinal controversies I would only be stirring up strife or causing contention and then that would divide like it says in 1 Corinthians. It shouldn't divide if I call myself a follower of Christ or a Saint or a Christian b/c all of us can agree we are followers of Christ, Saints, and Christians but when it comes to catholics, methodists, pentecostals, baptists and apostolics we can't always agree on everything which will not promote real unity which is of one mind and one heart.

I am a bible believing Christian, a follower of Christ and his word. I adhere to the doctrines of the early Apostles and Prophets as they indeed helped build the foundation of the church with Christ Jesus as the corner stone. Jesus said to his disciples that if they listen to me they will listen to you. The whole bible is the word of God not just Jesus' words but to understand the word made flesh we must understand the written word also which is the same thing.

We will someday get to the unity of the faith though false teachings of false apostles and false prophets/imposters have led the church into very dark times in the past now we are slowing coming back to the full truth for the bible says it and the stature of the mature man demands it.


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/22 10:23Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Can you elaborate more on this topic b/c i was contemplating this a few days ago and it has stuck in my mind yet without any release.

"there is a difference in the baptism of John and the old testament and the baptism of Christ, God and the Holy Spirit. All in the new testament is In, en:"

I also noticed how in Hebrews it says the prophets of old had the spirit of Christ in them. Not only did they have the spirit in them and not just upon them but it was also the spirit of Christ in them who (Christ) wasn't even born yet as to his humanity. i had thought that the old testament saints didnt have the holy spirit in them but Zacharias, Elizabeth and john the baptist (filled with the holy ghost from womb) were filled with the holy ghost. What is the difference between our recieving the holy spirit and theirs? Is their a different measure? Is it that in Christ we have the fullness b/c Christ is the completion of the Law and the Prophets? Is it b/c of the sequence of events like the grace eternal, law temporary aspect? animals skins for man to Abraham - grace (Eternal). Moses to John the baptist - Law (temporary). Christ and his Church - grace (eternal). Is it b/c of how we were saved after Christ's finished work on the Cross and the old testament saints looked at that in the future and were saved but both of us had to either look forward or backward this took faith and both of us had to apply that faith.

Do you have an answer on what the difference is between the old testament saints and us new testament saints concerning the holy spirit and it filling and abiding?


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/22 10:43Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

everet, how do you recocile the references in the word concerning the thre sepatate porsons of the Godhead.
The Holy Sririt.....He
The Father....He
Jesus....He
They are ciearly 3 persons

This is solid ground and an acurate starting place
You seem to start from a different 'location'
[begining with a concept outside of scripure ]
When a simple bible study PROVES this 'no trinity' concept false.



....David

 2007/10/22 11:08Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

By the moderator I was told to tone this whole discussion down and from an brother I was given a wise rebuke so I have modified this post for the sake of peace but I believe the truth is already evident. Why do you need me or Blaze or anyone else to explain to you what you already know? It is more than folly to continue these posts after 8 to 9 pages. Paul summed it all up in one page. This is totally pitiful! Many a times we know the answer to things but just don't want to accept it. It is sad how the simple words of Jesus get turned into long pages of arguments between men and not long hours of inquiring before God. Brothers and Sisters in Christ let us seek God concerning this matter and the first person that comes back in an argumentative and derisive manner will have not succeeded the test. Rather let us agree! Let us agree! For goodness sake let us agree just once!


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/22 15:36Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Generally when a Mod tells you to tone down, you don't post an even longer explaination. I just want to make sure that anyone who is reading this forum gets both sides. The side that you have been stating in your prior posts is not biblically orthodox (at least in any church I have attended). There are a lot of things in theology that I don't understand, so I'm not stating that you are wrong in your beliefs, but whenever there is something controversial, both sides should be stated to give the reader the benefit to make the choice between them.

Only the Holy Spirit can confirm the truth in someone's heart, there is plenty of theology that is man centered, and plenty of well meaning teaching that takes the focus off of biblical truth... who owns truth? Only Jesus can really tell us what is true.

The moderators have the hard task of making sure that people who are preaching what is contrary to the truth are kept from sewing seeds of false teachings... the fact that the moderators haven't told you to stop talking outright is a positive thing. I hope you understand that no one is trying to tell you to stop talking, but you need to have more wisdom and discernment in your conversation. But you should also understand that when a Mod talks with you in private (as they have with me in the past) that it is a sign that you are dangerously close to the edge of that grey area when they have to start making choices on whether or not the things that you're saying have a positive effect on the forum or a negative one.

Generally when I've recieved a warning from a moderator I take a few days, or a couple of weeks away from the site, get my head together, pray about what I have said and try to see the side of whoever it was that I was argueing with... and in several cases I have been persuaded that I was in the wrong. I am not infalible, and I am not an expert on all things theological, and I am not an even tempered person, but God has given me enough sense to take a step back once and a while and try to gain better understanding, and he has blessed me with that understanding on occasion.

This forum can be a great blessing spiritually if you let it... many people come to this forum with their own adgendas, politically, emotionally or doctrinally motivated. If you have an agenda of your own, this place cannot be a blessing. This is not a soap box, this is not a pulpit, it is a fellowship... and being in fellowship with others means you need to learn how to listen to other people as well as when to be silent. Being in fellowship with others, being in relationships is tough... unfortunately a lot of people who come to forums like this are failures in fellowship (not all mind you, there are plenty of wonderful loving people on here) and this may not be the best place for someone... it can make someone even more bitter or frustrated in the long run. If someone comes to a forum like this to vent, they may just be sewing seeds of bitterness that will take years to dig out the roots in repentance.

So as much as this forum can be a blessing, it is also a dangerous place as well -Satan would seek to use anything, no matter how good, to corrupt the children of God.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/10/22 17:16Profile









 Re:

Thank you Ian, for this very gracious and sensitive comment.

I wonder if there should be a rule made about posting very long posts, or very frequently, in any one thread? :-P

Bro. Everett, I was hoping to really study your responses to try and understand where you are comong from, but have totally given up because of being half drowned in the mass of words you produce!

I mean, I would like to get to know you better as an individual, not merely your views: ...what makes you tick, why you have posted as you have, how you got to the point of believing what the majority of Christians see as heresy, what sort of person you are...etc

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/10/22 17:34
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Yeah, I thought about that, but I thought he had meant to tone it done in the manner of speech and conversation not in length but certainly toning it done in length will inevitably tone done the speech and conversation.

Thank You Iansmith for your wise rebuke and instruction.

"I pray that God will help us to abound in the love of God and live so much for you that the devil will be completely exposed in this area and sphere that he has been operating in so that we can be free to completely walk together. Oh, God give us the insight and wisdom concerning how to communicate things you reveal to us and when to say, how to say it and when to refrain from saying it. Help us to guard our mouths. This is probably a big problem on forums when the mouth is given full vent to say as you will via the keyboard. Dear Jesus help us to ever be in your will. Amen"

May God's grace be with you Iansmith. I love you as a brother.


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/22 18:30Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

You were doing really well until the cynicism kicked in...

Quote:
If I can I will be taking my post down for the sake of peace for it seems like no one wants to find out the truth on this matter why waste time posting things up that God has revealed to me and others through his word rather let us sit back and give ourselves to compromising out of the fear of man for some pagan doctrine that even unsaved me know is false.

Your last comment, stated in sarcasm of course appears to the untrained eye as an attack on the rest of the forum users... it may appear that 'no one wants to find out the truth' and that we're all self satisfied with our theology... but could it be... and don't take this wrong... but others, including myself have been trying to help you see that there is a mote in your own eye.

It takes a skillful word craft to write in what appears to be humility and then couch some sharp proud comments. Pride is the fundemental root of many of the sins on this forum, including my own, it takes an extra degree of humility to admit that one has typed several pages of comments in pride, or spiritual pride.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/10/22 18:45Profile





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