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psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

everett, I have discussed the trinity with j. witnessees. They deny the diety of the son.
Now this is a new one on me. You deny the existance of the father and Holy spirit?
Have you read in genesis where it says let us create man in our image?
Or in heb. 'but of the son he [the father] says thy throne o God is for ever and ever?'
Who was Jesus looking up to when he prayed to the father?
when stephen was stoned Jesus was standing beside the father.
Go to the bookstore and purchase a book concerning this religion you are in.[I'm guesing U.P.]
They have decieved you!


....David

 2007/10/19 23:34Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Let us not be deceived: this thread is not simply about dunking a person in water. It is not a "small point of doctrine." This is about the nature of Christ and His work on the cross. There is nothing "apostolic" about the doctrines being presented here under that name. It is one of the oldest heresies in the book: Sabellianism. And the UPC/UAC has added to that justification by baptism and tongues. Grace alone through faith is not enough.

To the "apostolic" brethren out there: I love you. PLEASE read the whole council of God and not just the verses that fit the proof-texting you have been taught. All of the arguments you have used on this thread to promote your doctrine can easily be found on the UPC website. It used to be on the homepage under something like "60 reasons the Trinity is false". But they conveniently ignore the scriptures that plainly contradict their teaching, not to mention the wealth of Ante-Nicene father writings (in context) that prove a consistent line of teaching the Trinity from the revelation of scripture.

Please do not take this as an insult: You have been taught how to argue, but not reason. You have been brought up to eisegete, not exegete.

I plead with you: re-examine the scriptures and let them interpret you.


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/20 2:21Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

All i know for sure with the upmost confidence is that the word trinity is not found in the bible and the explanation for the word trinity is not either. This "trinity" or Godhead is described otherwise. There is a Father, there is a Son (Word), There is a Holy Spirit but they are all ONE. ALL ONE. ALL ONE AND THE SAME BEING, PERSON. GOD is so much greater than us. HE can appear in so many forms at the same time. Right now he could be audibly speaking in russia and at the same time audibly speaking in China. Right now he could be physically present in the U.S and at the same time Physically present in Australia. His ways are so much higher than our ways. The trinity has God seperated like he can't be one person and operate in totally different realms like the south polar vs the north polar. We know for sure that The Father is God and the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God so therefore God but the mystery lies in Jesus. Jesus is God too although he is man at the same time (this brings us back to the polar opposites, this enigma, this paradox) and if he is God then he can say I am the everlasting Father the Prince of Peace. He can say I and the Father will come and take our abode in you. For goodness sake he even said before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. So if you want to know the name of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, you can find it in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No, I am not a part of the UPC. I am not a part of an organization but I am part of an organism, a living body that gets its information from the Head who is Christ the Lord. No early teaching or doctrine from an organization has deceived me because I always go back study the word for myself from a unbiased point of view and I find such things as these as true.

You can't ever convince me to believe that the trinity is God originated and God inspired when the history tells us that the catholic church made it up and in the bible it is no where to be found not just in the word but in the meaning. Never has the bible said that in God is three persons. God is one person, one infinite being that is every where at the same time doing things in multiple places so that it looks like he is more than one but the bible stresses the fact so much that he is still ONE besides the way it may look like such as the Son standing beside the right hand of God or the Father speaking to the Son while the Holy Spirit is descending on him. God can do so much more than that.

You gotta understand the difference between names and positions, titles and offices or roles. Jesus was more than the "Son". Before he came to the earth he was the Word and that made him one with God for the Word is God. When he came to the earth he was the Word made flesh which made him the only begotten of the Father. After his resurrection he was Lord of both the dead and the living. After his ascension he was giving the highest place over all things. Soon after on the day of Pentecost the holy spirit was poured out but the 120 didn't just receive the "third person of the trinity" but they receive the "second and the first person of the trinity" if I may talk in your language. You see these are all mysteries. Not only does one receive the holy spirit but one receives the spirit of Christ and the spirit of the Father which is the spirit of God b/c they are one. The trinity separates God and limits him as in a box like a person may say "this is the third person of the trinity working" no this is God working who isn't divided into third or second persons but there are different roles that he fulfills that are tied to a name like Jehovah Raphah and etc. If you want to use numbers on God to be correct you can't call him three persons in the Godhead. Why not 24 persons in one Godhead b/c he is so much bigger than that. It is safer to just say there is one God who is infinite and every where at the same time through his spirit and he has manifested himself to the world through his dear Son Jesus Christ who is also God because of his number of days which has no beginning or ending, he has no earthly father, he never sinned and every man his sinned, no one is perfect but God. There is unity in this.

I hope we can have these talks and learn from each other b/c every time I may listen to you I make sure what i believe is the truth and vice versa for you. If we were alone on a island how could our faith and beliefs be tested.

I don't know who you are but I love you anyway. God Bless.


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/20 12:56Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

You Said:

"There is nothing "apostolic" about the doctrines being presented here under that name. It is one of the oldest heresies in the book: Sabellianism. And the UPC/UAC has added to that justification by baptism and tongues. Grace alone through faith is not enough."

My Response:

I have no idea what Sabellianism is but what I do know is the Mystery of Godliness which is "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Jesus Christ was God, we all know and believe that I hope. He was God before his human manifestation as the Word and he is God and Man even after his death, burial and resurrection as the Lord of both the dead and the living. He is the one that will judge everyone. The Father has giving the judgment over to the son but the son said that I will not condemn you but the words I have spoken to you which my Father gave me to speak will on that day declare you innocent or guilty. If Jesus is God then he can rightly say "I am the everlasting Father, the prince of peace, the mighty God". He even said that he was before Abraham's time as the great I AM. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him..." How are we complete in him? We are complete in him because he is the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I already showed you how he is the Father and everyone knows he is the Son but what about the Holy Spirit. Before he was the Word made flesh which is the Son he was the Word and the Word was no doubt God. After Jesus' ministry on earth the glory he had with the Father before the world began was restored. It was like he went back to being the Word before his descending to the earth but this time he still has his body yet it is glorified never to die as God is imperishable, incorruptible. Why? Because he is our brother and he had to share in our likeness and he is the first fruits of the resurrection body. We are in him and one day shall be like him as to his resurrection, glorified body. You see this is all a mystery in which Paul talked about.

They say that the trinity is a mystery but Paul says otherwise that Jesus is a MYSTERY b/c he is the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY in which all the treasures and knowledge of God are found in Him. GREAT IS THE MYSTERY OF GODLINESS!

Jesus is the highest revelation of who God is. It is not enough to say that the name of God is Jehovah this and Jehovah that. The bible in the old testament said that God's name was the Lord, Jealous, Holy and so on but in the New Testament in which the Law and the Prophets is fulfilled through the coming of the Messiah God is given a new name and this new name transcends and supersedes the old ones. His new name is Jesus (I am not talking about the new name in revelations). Jesus walks on water as it states in the old testament that God can do. Jesus calms the seas as it states in the old testament that God can do. Jesus is baptizing with the Holy Spirit and fire as states from John the greatest of all the old testament prophets would do and it even says something in Malachi about how Jesus would be like a refining fire and a launders soap. Jesus is likened to Moses, to Adam, to the works of the prophets, to the high priest, to the sacrifices.... I mean he is everything important in the bible! Jesus said that the Law and the prophets point to him! Now that we have the highest revelation of who God is are you trying to go back to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit obsolete and incomplete explanation of the Godhead when the Godhead is found in Jesus?

Think about it Jesus fulfills so many roles and titles of God all in his one person. He was with God before the world began, when there was nothing nowhere. He created the world and the universe. We later found out what the image and likeness of God is and what it looks like through Jesus whom God made as the blueprint of the image and likeness of God. He spoke the words of God as to the prophets and holy men and women of God through out the ages. He was involved in judgments that God poured out on the nations. He was the redeemer and savior of the world by taking on himself the likeness of man and dying as a blameless sacrifice. He was the holy and righteous servant and branch of God. He was the one seen as in the Song of Solomon. He was the one seen in Isaiah's vision and Ezekiel's vision. I MEAN JESUS IS AWESOME. PAUL KNOWS WHAT HE MEANS WHEN HE SAID THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY IS IN JESUS. HE IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH AS HE WAS THE HUSBAND OF THE ISRAELITES. HE IS THE HUSBAND OF THE CHURCH IN WHICH WE ARE THE BRIDE. JESUS BRINGS ALL THE OLD TESTAMENT TOGETHER AND TIES IT INTO HIS MINISTRY ON EARTH AND DURING THE CHURCH AGE! WE ARE SEEN AS PRIESTS AND (KINGS) OF GOD THAT CAN ENTER THE HOLY PLACE AND OFFER UP INCENSE AND EAT OF THE BREAD OF GOD ONLY BECAUSE OF JESUS.

I MEAN WHAT MORE CAN I SAY. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SCRIPTURAL. PAUL WOULD TESTIFY BY SAYING AMEN FOR I AM ONLY REPEATING WHAT HE SAID.

I HOPE WE ALL CAN COME TO AN AGREEMENT ON THESE THINGS. IF THE TRINITY WERE TRUE THEN I WOULD HAVE ALREADY CHANGED MY BELIEFS. I LOVE THE TRUTH AND WHATEVER THE TRUTH IS REVEALED IN THE BIBLE I BELIEVE. THERE ARE TEACHINGS OUT THERE THAT ARE VERY ALLURING AND SEEM TO BE TRUE BUT I KNOW DEEP DOWN IT IS NOT. HALF TRUTHS ARE NOT TRUTHS. WE HAVE A LOT OF HALF TRUTHS TODAY.

ALTHOUGH I DON'T KNOW YOU I'M SURE YOU LOVE JESUS VERY MUCH AND I LOVE YOU ALSO.

I PRAY THAT THIS IS EDIFYING AND UPLIFTING TO YOUR SPIRIT.

GOD BLESS


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/20 13:51Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

I doubt if there is anybody in the s.i. fellowship that will agree with this doctrine of no trinity.
In fact anybody that espouses to this error will meet stiff oposition in 99% of christian circles.
You would[in my opinion] have to hijack the leadership of s.i. to have much further voice.
this is no small thing. And this is non negotiable for me.
You are not weighing your doctrine ....you are instructive.

Not me....My battles are too hard won to let some doctrine of men disenfranchise me!!!


That is some kind of sloppy jaloppy jibberish!!

....David

 2007/10/20 14:59Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

You may not be familiar with the term Sabellianism, but that is what you are presenting to us.

Arians and modalists alike use the argument (sic) "the word trinity is not found in the Bible so therefore it can't be true". That is horrible reasoning. The word "bacon bits" isn't in the Bible either, but I'm pretty sure they exist. The question is not whether the word is in scripture, but whether it is taught in scripture.

If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one person, then who spoke to the whom that was landed on by whom at the Son's baptism? If they were one "person" then at this point in time that person was split into 1/3 each. If you say this was just God being "omnipresent" (another word not faound in scripture, and yet true), then you deny the nature of the incarnation of Christ and Jesus could not be our representative as "man".

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all called "God" in scripture, all have God's attributes, and yet are spoken of independently with different offices and subordinations while all exist and operate simultaneously. God refers to himself as "Us" several times in scripture. The clearest picture of one God in three persons is found in Gen. 18. Get a KJV and read it, paying particular attention to the "Thou/Thee/Thy" vs. "Ye/You/Your" in the conversation between Abraham and his one God Jehovah in three persons.


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/20 17:12Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Everett wrote:

Jesus Christ was God, we all know and believe that I hope. He was God before his human manifestation as the Word and he is God and Man even after his death, burial and resurrection as the Lord of both the dead and the living. He is the one that will judge everyone. The Father has giving the judgment over to the son but the son said that I will not condemn you but the words I have spoken to you which my Father gave me to speak will on that day declare you innocent or guilty. If Jesus is God then he can rightly say "I am the everlasting Father, the prince of peace, the mighty God".

Who was Jesus praying to all through HIS ministery?
Surrly, He didn't departed into a mountain to talk to Himself(Mat 14:23, Mar 6:46, Luk 6:12).

Who was He talking to when He cried, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 2007/10/20 18:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Everett said

…You can't ever convince me to believe that the trinity is God originated and God inspired when the history tells us that the catholic church made it up…

…I HOPE WE ALL CAN COME TO AN AGREEMENT ON THESE THINGS. IF THE TRINITY WERE TRUE THEN I WOULD HAVE ALREADY CHANGED MY BELIEFS. I LOVE THE TRUTH AND WHATEVER THE TRUTH IS REVEALED IN THE BIBLE I BELIEVE…

Hi Everett

I appreciate what you have written recently, and it has given food for thought – especially your comment about God’s nature being beyond our understanding (words to that effect). You do have a point, although I disagree with your conclusion, (because the same could equally be said about the concept of the Trinity).

Just a couple of comments for now on the above quotes, from two different posts…

This is a poor illustration but the best I can think of at the moment:

[color=000066]There is a man I often see around town. I know some things about him, such as: he’s married with two children, works in a bank, drives a red car, has a brown and white dog, and lives on the High Street. However, I don’t know his name.

If I later hear someone calling him “Mr Smith”. Does that make any difference to the other facts about him? Does that mean that maybe he isn’t married, doesn’t work in the bank etc?[/color]

The earliest believers knew certain things about Jesus, about His fulfillment of the Old Testament Scriptures, about His relationship with the Father and about the Holy Spirit. They wrote down something of what they knew and understood, and remembered.

Much later theologians tried to explain one aspect of what they early Christians wrote about – one aspect of the nature of God. This was given a name – The Trinity.

[i]Of course[/i] the expression, “The Trinity” is not found in the Bible! It’s a technical term coined later, (whether by the Catholic Church, or whoever, makes no difference).

Many other theological terms aren’t found in the Bible either, but that doesn’t disprove what the terms stand for. You are confusing a mere “label” for the truth it stands for(doctrine is an attempt to explain Truth) .

However, the [u][b]concept[/b][/u] is found all over the Bible. It is less obvious of course in the Old Testament, where the absolute oneness of God had to be stressed because of the ever-present danger of idolatry, but, even there, there are many hints. For example, in the [i]shema[/i], “Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is one Lord”. Literally in the original it is, “…the Lord your God[i][u]s[/u][/i] is one Lord”.

One of my favourite references (partly because it’s obscure and difficult to explain away) is Isaiah 48:16

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

It must be Jesus talking, but how can God send Himself? How can the Spirit send Jesus if the Spirit and the Father are both Jesus?!

You said:
Quote:
IF THE TRINITY WERE TRUE THEN I WOULD HAVE ALREADY CHANGED MY BELIEFS. I LOVE THE TRUTH AND WHATEVER THE TRUTH IS REVEALED IN THE BIBLE I BELIEVE

Yet in the first quote you said:

Quote:
…You can't ever convince me to believe that the trinity is God originated…

I’m sure you are passionately sincere and believe every word you say, but, if you really love the Truth and are open to Truth, you should be able to examine the Bible with an open mind. You should have the courage to at least search the Scriptures like the Bereans did at Paul’s preaching, to see if others’ interpretations might after all have some truth in them, rather than saying “you can’t ever convince me…”.

Shouldn’t you?

In Him

Jeannette

(PS, apparently it’s considered rude to put things in block capitals too much, or use huge font sizes – as if you are shouting. I wouldn’t have known if someone hadn’t told me, so this isn’t a criticism)

 2007/10/20 18:47









 Re:

Quote:

BeYeDoers wrote:
You may not be familiar with the term Sabellianism, but that is what you are presenting to us.

Arians and modalists alike use the argument (sic) "the word trinity is not found in the Bible so therefore it can't be true". That is horrible reasoning. The word "bacon bits" isn't in the Bible either, but I'm pretty sure they exist. The question is not whether the word is in scripture, but whether it is taught in scripture.

If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one person, then who spoke to the whom that was landed on by whom at the Son's baptism? If they were one "person" then at this point in time that person was split into 1/3 each. If you say this was just God being "omnipresent" (another word not faound in scripture, and yet true), then you deny the nature of the incarnation of Christ and Jesus could not be our representative as "man".

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all called "God" in scripture, all have God's attributes, and yet are spoken of independently with different offices and subordinations while all exist and operate simultaneously. God refers to himself as "Us" several times in scripture. The clearest picture of one God in three persons is found in Gen. 18. Get a KJV and read it, paying particular attention to the "Thou/Thee/Thy" vs. "Ye/You/Your" in the conversation between Abraham and his one God Jehovah in three persons.

That's in a nutshell what I was trying to say in the last posting (which must have taken at least an hour to compose!

Thank you!

Jeannette

 2007/10/20 18:49
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Imagine Jesus saying to himself "Since I am God I don't need to pray and if I do pray who I am I going to pray to since I am God himself indeed in the flesh" After that Jesus would fly up to heaven, send thunder bolts, come back and walk on water, feed a million people, cure all diseases and say it is done forget the cross when I can speak things into existence, I speak salvation to those who follow me. This would be absolutely crazy. Jesus was God but he was the son of God, he called himself more the son of man. He didn't have a high mind thinking I am God this is great like the movie Evan Almighty which was blasphemy. He had to know his position as the Son who submitted to his Father in everything. Likewise we today are called sons of God and we have to submit to the father and pray to him. Jesus was an example for us to follow. In the flesh, his state of humiliation he couldn't take on the role of the everlasting father at that moment but after his glorification, the glory that he had before the world began was restored, he could be called the everlasting father just as he is called today the Lord of both the dead and the living.

In Jesus' humanity he prayed to the Father who heard him. You got to understand that Jesus Christ was the word manifest in flesh. God died for the world through his son. The Son, the Son had a earthly BODY, earthly ears, mouth, toes, feet, mind, will, emotion (soul). The son had a earthly mother, the son had earthly friends. The son ate food and drank and had a digestive system on earth. The Son had a voice, a tongue, a vocal cord and lungs. He could speak. Just because God was in Jesus and Jesus was God doesn't mean that no one was in heaven. the Father was in heaven while the son was on earth doing his will but Jesus also says that "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." This is another mystery, a enigma because it doesn't make sense, a paradox because it is contradictory. Thank God for the preservation of this verse in the kjv b/c in the NASV IT DOESNT SAY THAT!

Do you get what I am saying here. As a human Jesus had to pray that way because in the office of God the Father he has no body. God as a spirit alone doesnt pray to no one. Since Jesus is God why does he have to pray. He has to pray like he is doing today, interceding for us at the right hand of God because of his office and his position as the only begotten of the Father which is the word made flesh and in this word made flesh you see a great high priest, you see a king, you see God, you see the fullness of the godhead, you see a sacrifice, you see a perfect life, you see the type of righteous Job, you see the the last Adam , the second man, you see the love of God, you see the jealousy of God and his zealousness for his temple and his people and his commandments and his word .

I said it once and I'll say it again to let you know what way I am answering your question. Jesus is the Son and he had to stick to that position and office. he had to operate in it and not go out side those parameters. Not praying to the father because he was the everlasting father or because he was God would be going outside or violating his office rules and boundaries. As a Son he had to submit to the Father who was his Father since HE WAS BORN OF GOD WASNT HE? THERE WAS NO EARTHLY SEED INVOLVED IN THE CONCEPTION. THEREFORE HE WAS RIGHTLY GOD'S SON WHY NOT PRAY TO HIM AS A SON. After the last enemy death is destroyed the Son will subject himself to the father and hand the kingdom over to him so that God will be all and all.

Does this answer your question?


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/20 19:23Profile





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