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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born of water

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BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:


 2007/10/19 16:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:

iansmith wrote:
My frustration stems from the fact that despite your claim to be zealous about Jesus, your comments over the past several days show that you're just another [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll]internet troll[/url].

I'm tired of people on this forum (and you're only the most recent of many) who join only to start trouble. Your comments over the past several days haven't been edifying and haven't added at all to the community.

The point of this forum is not bickering over minor points of scripture, but instead encouraging those who are genuinely seeking a deeper relationship with Jesus. If you want to argue doctrine there will be people here on this forum willing to walk that path with you, but I'm simply tired and voicing my frustration.

I have been pretty harsh, but I've given you the opportunity to show some fruit, and you answered back with the same sarcasm and proud tone that has defined your other posts until this moment.

Trust me when I say this, you're not the only person on this forum 'blazed for God,' but when you act like you are, you betray ignorance to all those around you. You have to realize that this forum represents many different denominations and hundreds of different doctrinal views... the second you start ranting about one doctrinal view over all others you are basically telling the rest of the forum that they're going to hell.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ here, we all proclaim the same Jesus (hopefully) and we all desire to see revival. Please tone down your rhetoric and start contibuting something to edify the other brothers and sisters.

Amen Bro Ian

You and I have had the odd disagreement too, as have many others. But there are [i]ways[/i] of disagreeing, and [i]ways[/i] of discussing disagreements and differences in doctrinal stance. One can disagree strongly, and put forward a point very forcefully and still remain gracious, and accepting of someone who doesn't see things that way.

That is all anyone has said against you, Bro Blazed, that you haven't been doing that so far, and this is creating problems for the whole thread.

Which is a pity

in Christ

Jeannette

 2007/10/19 16:06
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:


 2007/10/19 16:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I don't see why we have to argue over these things. It is most evident that scriptural baptism is admistered in the name of Jesus. You laid out the scriptures plainly



Here is another example of someone using underhanded debating skills. It might as well say

Quote:
There's no reason to argue over this because it is so clear and anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong and doesn't understand scripture.




No thanks friend - not buying. I'll stick with the powerful salvation that comes from the renewal of the Holy Spirit even if the believer has been *gasp* baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit.

I fear for believers who's religous passion resembels that of the pharisees more then that of Christ. For thousands of years men have followed close scriptural details and have argued over how to best keep these details... Jesus came to destroy this type of religion, and the men who spent there time arguing over these type of details did not even recognize the Christ to whom they pointed.


In His name - Jim

 2007/10/19 16:17









 Re:

and before anyone says it....

[b]Doctrine is important,[/b]
but it can also be deceptive.

The kingdom of God is in power and not in word. The pharisees had the words and argued over them down to a "t"...

In Christ - Jim

 2007/10/19 16:18









 Re: Can we get back on track?

Let's look at the original discussion point again.

The question was if John 3:5-6 is talking of "water" as meaning childbirth.

John 3:6 - the original reference [color=990000] [i]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be [b][u]born of water and of the Spirit[/u][/b], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
:6[/b] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[/i][/color]

I'm beginning to think that water here does indeed refer to baptism. Not because there's any mystical power in the water itself, but because baptism is a step of obedience to the Lord, a public declaration of faith, from which there's no going back. I've heard that in Muslim countries a convert to Christ may be comparatively safe as long as he doesn't get baptised. But if he takes the public step of baptism his life is in danger from then on.

So it is a step of utter commitment to Christ. And the Kingdom of God has no room for half-hearted or lukewarm converts.

********************************************************************

Some of the following scriptures have already been mentioned. This is just an attempt to put things together in order to get a clearer picture - at least in my own mind.

One of the main themes of John's writings is that Jesus, although He was one with God from eternity, became a man.

John 1:1 [color=990000] [i] [u][b]In the beginning was the Word[/b][/u], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…[/i] [/color]

John 1:14
[color=990000] [i]And [b][u]the Word was made flesh[/u][/b], and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.[/i] [/color]


1John 1:
[color=990000] [i]1 That which was from the beginning, which [u][b]we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life[/b][/u];
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.[i] [/color]

Jesus wasn’t just a heavenly Being that temporarily took on human form, as angels sometimes do, He really did become human!

And even His death proved it:

John 19:34-35
[color=990000] [i]34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out [u][b]blood and water[/b][/u].
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.[/i] [/color]

John obviously sees this as very significant. For one thing it proved that Jesus was indeed dead - the blood in His body was already clotting, the thick clots separating from the watery blood plasma.

It also proved His humanity – as the Resurrection proved His divinity…

Or maybe John saw more even than this?

In 1John he uses this truth of “the Word become flesh” as a “diagnostic test” for heresy…
[u]1John 4:2-3[/u]
[color=990000] [i]2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that [u][b]Jesus Christ is come in the flesh[/b][/u] is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that [b][u]Jesus Christ is come in the flesh[/u][/b] is not of God: [/i] [/color]

And in chapter 5 water and blood is spoken of again…

[u]1John 5:6[/u]
[color=990000] [i]This is he that came [b][u]by water and blood[/u][/b], even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but [b][u]by water and blood[/u][/b]. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.[/i] [/color]

Does water refer to childbirth here? There is certainly both “water” and blood during that process. If so, it is again emphasising that Jeus became fully human and was born just as we are.

Or does it refer to baptism? If baptism, it states plainly that baptism in itself isn’t enough.

Or does it link with John 19, which may be the key to the whole thing, that when He died for our sin, water and blood came forth from His side.

And this in turn links with the bringing forth of Eve from Adam’s side – for Jesus is spoken of as the second Adam – and the bringing forth of the covenant with Abraham, when the Lord put him into a deep sleep (Genesis 15), as He did Adam. Because Abraham was the ancestor of the holy “Seed” of God, Jesus.

Who will receive the Church, His bride, from the Father
(Revelation 21:2) [color=990000] [i]And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.)[/i][/color]

as Adam received Eve.

WOW!!!! This is awesome! I’m not quite sure where this is leading but it just makes me want to fall down and worship the Lord

One last scripture… John 1:12 [color=990000] [i]…But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, [b][u]not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh[/u][/b], nor of the will of man, but of God.[/i] [/color]

The new birth has nothing to do with man’s efforts, (in the same way that Adam didn’t do anything to produce Eve, or Abraham to cut the covenant with the Lord in Genesis 15). Water isn't mentioned here, which may be significant, only flesh and blood.


in Him


Jeannette

 2007/10/19 17:03









 Re:

Quote:

Everett wrote:
I don't see why we have to argue over these things. It is most evident that scriptural baptism is admistered in the name of Jesus. You laid out the scriptures plainly. Even more why 2000 yrs when the bible is pretty clear concering the name of Jesus baptism. The bible is pretty clear concering the holy spirit baptism and the evidences and the signs of it coming. I don't get it. I grew up Apostolic but I tested what I was taught to see if it was true and it was. Constantly I am aiming at refining my understanding on these issues and get a clear understanding of it. I don't know what will get us into unity on these subjects. Maybe intense persecution

Hi Bro. Everett

You asked "I don't know what will get us into unity on these subjects"

But true unity is [i][u]spiritual[/u][/i] not complete agreement over doctrine - especially the finer points of interpretation.

As John said, there is a [i]spirit[/i] of truth and a [i]spirit[/i] of error:

1Jo 4:6 [color=990000] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.[/color]

Of course, a spirit of error will eventually manifest itself in false doctrine, but false doctrine isn't the root of the error.

And if we indeed have the Holy Spirit of Truth He will lead us into all Truth. Which [i][u]doesn't[/u][/i], as you seem to think, mean 100% correct, dotting i's and crossing t's doctrinal truth.

[b][i]Don't you understand that Truth is a Person - Jesus Himself?[/i][/b]

And who can say that they understand that Person 100%?

Or even understand 100% what the Bible says about that Person?

We should agree on the basic facts, but beyond that it's always a matter of interpretation.

That is why I cannot agree that it is "most evident that scriptural baptism is admistered in the name of Jesus...the bible is pretty clear concering the name of Jesus baptism. The bible is pretty clear concering the holy spirit baptism and the evidences and the signs of it coming."

The Bible is by no means clear on those points, it depends on how you interpret it.


Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/10/19 17:31
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

I thank you for your response but isnt all truth and the truth (jesus christ) two different things?

All we need to know is the foundations of the Apostolic Doctrine and we have lost them. The bible clearly shows us the foundations of the Apostolic Doctrine. We can know 100% as far as how to be saved, who is our savior, who is Jesus, the holy spirit baptism, water baptism and etc. It is not hard.

Are you saying that we cant know whether to baptize in Jesus name or in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit? The Bible clearly shows us this matter.


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/19 18:59Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

If you are indeed talking to me, cause I cant tell if you are responding to someone else, what do you suppose me to do to edify you? Just shut my mouth.

Should I edify you by telling you a lie or the truth? Do you think I am actually lying to you and on the day of judgment i will have to face God for what i have said. I know in whom I believe and the words I have spoken to you are the truth. Blaze went over so many scriptures to back it up before i ever came on this forum. You didn't even need my input, blaze alone was enough but I wanted to share with everyone the truth in clarity.

Jesus would not say Except every man be born into this world and born of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Of course everyone to be born will be born of the flesh, why add the except like its not gonna happen. Not every body today is being baptized and not everyone today is being born of the spirit.

The trinity is unscriptural b/c three persons cannot be in one person. God is one person, one infinite being who manifested himself in the flesh as Jesus Christ our Lord. You cannot have three "me's" in "me". The spirit soul and body are parts of a person not persons within a person. The fullness of the Godhead was in Jesus bodily. He spoke like he was outside time and space, speaking on behalf of the Godhead (the father, the son and the holy spirit).

There is only one scripture that says to baptize in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit but did anyone be baptized in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit. No but in the name of Jesus Christ. Do I offend you by just speaking the plain word. Its all in Acts. Why would this offend you?

If none of this is worked out and talked out then we still will remain divided but we'll be silently divided, secretly harboring things in our hearts and someday it will come out.

I agree with you and the other guy ian, we must strive for loving Jesus and looking past our differences but I cannot let myself be baptized wrong if i know the truth, thats where the division comes because how can two walk together accept they agree. We must agree! The early disciples followed wholeheartedly after the apostles doctrine. They agreed, they were of one mind, one heart.

You want edification but what is edification seen as now a days? the prosperity Gospel. Should I tell someone they are saved when they are not. Should I tell someone good things all the times so that he will be in a comfort zone? We should no doubt seek to edify but Paul told timothy to tell those others that are preaching false doctrine to stop. Edification and contending for the apostolic faith are two totally different things.

I have seen that through these talks you have been given revelation on some things. You see if we can do these discussion in a loving manner and have a receptive heart where can we go wrong. We both must not stop untill we are completely assured about the truth of this matter without causing another brother to stumble or to fall, without hurting one another and without operating in the flesh.

God Bless


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/19 19:28Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Everett wrote:

The trinity is unscriptural b/c three persons cannot be in one person. God is one person, one infinite being who manifested himself in the flesh as Jesus Christ our Lord. You cannot have three "me's" in "me". The spirit soul and body are parts of a person not persons within a person. The fullness of the Godhead was in Jesus bodily. He spoke like he was outside time and space, speaking on behalf of the Godhead (the father, the son and the holy spirit).

What is the Godhead, if there is no trinity?

I say It is scriptural!
[b]MAT 3:16-17[/b] [color=990000]As soon as [b]Jesus[/b] was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw [b]the Spirit of God[/b] descending like a dove and lighting on him. And [b]a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son[/b], whom I love; with him I am well pleased."[/color]
[b]2 Corinthians 13:14[/b] [color=990000]May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.[/color]
[b]1 Peter 1:1-2[/b] [color=990000]To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.[/color]
[b]1 JOHN 5:7[/b] [color=990000]For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.[/color]

 2007/10/19 23:09Profile





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